The transcript has been transcribed and edited from English simultaneous interpretation, thus there may be potential semantic inaccuracies within it.
Daily Lesson (Morning), October 28, 2024.
Part 2: Selected Excerpts on the Topic: On the Verge of Lishma.
Reader: Hello, we are reading selected excerpts on the topic of On the Verge of Lishma. We'll continue with Excerpt Number Three from Rabash:
Reading: (00:06) RABASH, Article No. 12 (1988), "What Are Torah and Work in the Way of the Creator?"
Feeling the vitality in the Torah requires great preparation to prepare his body to be able to feel the life in the Torah. This is why our sages said we must begin in Lo Lishma, and through the light of Torah he obtains while still in Lo Lishma, it will bring him to Lishma, since the light in it reforms him. Then, he will be able to learn Lishma, meaning for the sake of the Torah, which is called “Torah [law] of life,” as he has already attained the life in the Torah, for the light in the Torah will have given such qualification to a person as to be able to feel the life that is in the Torah.
M. Laitman: Questions?
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (01:54) With the guest and the host, he says there's a meal and there's the host, and I need to concentrate on the host despite of the meal. How, when we discover the life in the Torah do I take this vitality, this pleasure, and use it to the revelation of the giver of the Torah and not falling into the pleasure in this life?
M. Laitman: I don't understand, I don't understand?
Student: In the excerpt, he said that the person who prepares his body receives from the Torah vitality. Life is the greatest, vitality is the greatest pleasure for a person in this world. How does a person not fall to the pleasure in the study of Torah and thinks only how to only take out greater vitality. But, rather uses it as a means, a testament to using it to reveal the Giver of the Torah. And focus more on the giver of the Torah and not all the things, the life in the Torah around and all that.
M. Laitman: It seems as if that is what attracts him.
Student: That's exactly my question: What's this guard that a person protects himself from not lowering his hand from the Giver of the Torah and being drawn to Him, to the goal. Rather than on the way, between us and the Giver of the Torah, there's endless pleasure, how does he not fall to that place? The Torah just gives him pleasure.
M. Laitman: He constantly thinks how it is possible to come closer to the giver of the Torah.
Student: Yes, but I myself have no power. I can't fence myself or put walls around myself. Do I need to ask the Giver of the Torah to help me not fall into the pleasure of the study of Torah. To protect me from all the vitality I receive in Torah?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Reader: (04:42) He writes here that we need to learn for the sake of the Torah, meaning to learn it Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Why for the sake of the Torah and not for the sake of the Creator?
M. Laitman: Because a person needs to receive the force from the Torah in order for it to bring him to the giver of the Torah.
Student: What is the meaning of learning for the sake of the Torah?
M. Laitman: For the sake of the Torah means to the outcome that the Torah needs to bring a person.
Student: So, to learn Lishma, what is that?
M. Laitman: For the sake of the Torah.
Student: This Torah, he then discovers that it's the Torah of life?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: What is this life in it?
M. Laitman: The Creator prepared it for the person in order for the person to reach true life.
Student: What is this true life?
M. Laitman: True life is what a person reveals in the Torah. A special force that a person receives, and this force directs the person to the eternality of the Torah.
Student: Are there two things: There's the Torah and the Giver of the Torah?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: What is the Torah, actually?
M. Laitman: Light is the upper light.
Student: And the Giver of the Torah?
M. Laitman: That is the Creator.
Student: And He is not the upper light?
M. Laitman: I don't know how to define Him.
Student: What's the difference between this and that – between light and the Creator?
M. Laitman: Light is clear to us, that it is the upper light which illuminates to a person, and to that extent, a person receives the quality of bestowal.
Student: Yes, and the quality of bestowal, how is it connected to the Creator?
M. Laitman: The quality of bestowal comes to us from the Creator.
Student: When a person starts to discover the giver of the Torah, the Creator, what happens with the Torah? Why does he need the means if he already reached the Torah?
M. Laitman: No, the Torah needs to illuminate to him, ceaselessly.
Student: When a person reaches adhesion with the Creator, with the Giver of the Torah, what is there in the middle between them?
M. Laitman: In the middle between them is the Torah.
Student: Then, how does he interpret the Torah, what is the Torah for him?
M. Laitman: Torah is the Creator's inner quality.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (08:37) From this excerpt, I understand that the Torah, only when he attains the life in the Torah, it's called Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: What is Lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: Lo Lishma is before that.
Student: Simply, Rabash in his articles, we read all his articles last year. And there he always starts by saying that there is the correction of the creation and there is the purpose of creation.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: When he talks about the Torah and the Torah of life, he's talking about the flavors, the tastes, in the Torah.
M. Laitman: The correction of creation.
Student: About the correction of the Torah? He talks about before the Torah, I understand. Meaning that the Torah is already, well, he says there's the deposits, the Pikudim,
M. Laitman: And the advice,
Student: The Counsels, so the Torah of life, seemingly, is already the deposits, the light in the Torah already.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: So, what is Lo Lishma? And he calls it Lishma, he says this is Lishma because it's for the sake of the Torah where he feels the life in there. So, it turns out that Lo Lishma is prior to that.
M. Laitman: Yes?
Student: Until he attains the light in the Torah, the tastes and the flavors in the Torah. So, it turns out that Lo Lishma is a stage in which he attains the counsels in the Torah, the stage where he builds the vessels of bestowal.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: So, it turns out that a person who is spiritually developing begins to build vessels of bestowal and this is called, Lo Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: It's not understood because seemingly?
M. Laitman: Well?
Student: Where are we in relation to this, that's the question, actually.
M. Laitman: We are not in this.
Student: Meaning the entire first stage of correction of the creation is called Lo Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Does it mean that we're studying on the verge of Lishma?
M. Laitman: We're learning.
Student: Meaning we're learning on the verge of trying to enter Lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: And what is our stage now called before Lo Lishma? What is that stage called?
M. Laitman: However, you want to call it, call it.
Student: What's special in this stage of Lo Lishma? Why is it actually called lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: It is because we are in lo Lishma, not for the sake of the Torah.
Student: A person begins to acquire vessels of bestowal, corrects himself gradually.
M. Laitman: Now?
Student: No, not now, in lo Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: What happens there, what is this lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: It is that a person reveals that he is in lo Lishma.
Student: And he acquires the vessels of bestowal.
M. Laitman: If he acquires the vessels of bestowal, then he is in Lishma.
Student: That's the question because he says, first correct the vessels and then receive the lights.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: And to receive the lights, it's called Torah, and according to what we read now, that's already Lishma.
M. Laitman: You could say that.
Student: So, the correction of the vessels is still lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Why is it called lo Lishma, if he's correcting his vessels in vessels of bestowal?
M. Laitman: He still can't work with those vessels in order to bestow.
Student: What does it mean that he acquired a vessel of bestowal if he cannot work in it in order to bestow? What's in this vessel?
M. Laitman: I don't understand you. In what state is the person?
Student: I'm asking why the stage in which a person begins to acquire vessels of bestowal?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Not yet the lights in those vessels, just the correction of creation, the correction of the vessels.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Why is that called Lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: Because he cannot work in order to bestow.
Student: But he is correcting himself, gradually, he is correcting vessels.
M. Laitman: Through what actions?
Student: That's my question: What does it mean that he's correcting the vessels, that he is now correcting and acquiring vessels of bestowal? What's happening to him there? Can he bestow, does he want to bestow?
M. Laitman: No.
Student: What's unique about these vessels? Is this the correction of creation? First of all, that's the first stage.
M. Laitman: Does anyone want to explain to me?
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (14:48) I feel what the friend is asking is actually saying. It seems to me like what he's asking is if a person is already correcting his vessels of bestowal but has not concluded that correction.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: That's still called Lo Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: So, what does he have in those vessels? What is a corrected vessel that you cannot work in order to bestow? That you cannot work with yet. When it's completely corrected, it's already Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: But when it's not corrected, there are many degrees of not corrected. What does it have in it? How can you even define it as a Kli that is a little corrected?
M. Laitman: It is that it's on the way, there.
Student: But he's not bestowing yet. He cannot bestow with it yet.
M. Laitman: Still not.
Student: How can he know something about this vessel if it's a vessel without light or there's some light in it that gives partial bestowal? What is this thing between this and that – between not corrected and corrected.
M. Laitman: That's how it is, that's the state.
Student: What can you do with these vessels when they're not quite corrected?
M. Laitman: Continues, continues; what can he do if that's how he is?
Student: Meaning it has nothing to do with them but?
M. Laitman: There is what to do, continue. Works with them in order to continue more and more forces of bestowal.
Student: He says, here, to qualified to prepare his body. Is this what we're talking about?
M. Laitman: Yes, his entire desire is called his body.
Student: What's in this process that a person could say, I prepared it a little, I prepared it more, by what does he measure this refining or this preparing of the body?
M. Laitman: I don't know but he can feel something. As much as from his desire, he transitions to in order to bestow a little bit from in order to receive.
Student: Is it a matter of feeling or understanding?
M. Laitman: It's all in feeling.
Student: I think that's what the friend was asking.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (17:25) If this can be clarified: If we're talking about his body, meaning one Kli, meaning you can think of it, that it's either zero percent or 100% correction and the process in between. Or you need to think about many vessels in a person and a person is each time in a different point – some corrected and some not.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: what's more correct?
M. Laitman: Many vessels.
Student: So, the vessels, so there are other vessels that are even corrected at a certain stage?
M. Laitman: Maybe.
Student: And they do receive light, there's filling in them?
M. Laitman: Partially.
Student: Does a person even have preparations towards these vessels that he has?
M. Laitman: He has.
Student: Meaning he feels, what is a Kli, a desire, as far as a person is?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: There are desires in him that he corrected and those that not?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Do we need to aspire to discern such discernments?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: The correction is that a person does what we do, the upper light comes and changes him? Or does a person need to try and work in a more specific, guided way?
M. Laitman: What you said is enough.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (18:49) What does it mean to study for the sake of the Torah?
M. Laitman: Studying for the sake of the Torah means studying and conducting all kinds of actions in order to reveal the force of bestowal in the world.
Student: Because we said that the study Lishma is the study for the sake of the Torah. What you define now is called the study Lishma.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (19:34) The question is whether there's a sharp transition between corporeality and spirituality. Like a person attained a screen and that's it, he's in spirituality? Or is there a process where he has half a foot there and gradually he can feel spirituality gradually this way?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (19:58) In the stage where a person is in Lishma, is there a way to measure what he's missing in order to reach Lishma?
M. Laitman: No.
Student: So simply continue until it's revealed?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (20:24) We said that to prepare his body is to prepare his desire. Is it connected to the expansion of the vessels, even if it's for the sake of reception, the whole part of Lishma?
M. Laitman: Seemingly.
Student: Let's go to the Ten: If we're wanting in the Ten to prepare the body of the Ten. What is it that we need to focus upon most, opening the heart, incorporation, connection.
M. Laitman: Incorporation.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (21:11) A little more on this: There's this concept of he shall swallow and regurgitate it back up.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: This happens that we're working in Lishma until the vessels invert and then light can shine in them?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: But is it correct to think that actually all the light suddenly is revealed at once? Or it's also there, later on, stages.
M. Laitman: Seemingly, there are stages.
Student: I think that that is the question: What is this state in which it already starts to illuminate, but not really all the light illuminates?
M. Laitman: Well?
Student: Is that already the Lishma or still the Lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: There are degrees.
Student: We're not managing to understand precisely, even technically, when it becomes from Lo Lishma to already being Lishma? Is there even such a precise definition in terms of the correction of the vessels and their filling?
M. Laitman: I don't understand exactly what you're asking about. What point, what state?
Student: The state in which a person is constantly working, still in concealment, like you explained. Where he already feels that he's advancing, when does this stage receive an inversion?
M. Laitman: It inverts from what to what?
Student: From continuing to work in concealment. At some stage, we talk about a person is supposed to be receiving light or a certain revelation?
M. Laitman: It depends on the person; if his goal is to bring contentment to the Creator, then everything that progresses the person to that is called the increasing of that attainment.
Student: A person will define himself in that development that he's already working in Lishma? Or is he working in Lo Lishma that leads to Lishma?
M. Laitman: No, he's in Lishma.
Student: Meaning, despite the fact that a person doesn't yet have the actual lights in the vessels, he already feels that he's working Lishma?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Maybe that was that discernment.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (24:32) To attain the goal of Lishma, a person discovers there's a great gap and feels, as it's written in the text. The effort needs to be in drawing light during the study.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: There are moments of grace during the lesson where a person feels, or I feel, that I'm in this effort somewhat, in this drawing of light. I wanted to ask, I'm certain there are friends who are more in such an effort during the lesson, more than me. How can you be focused on such an exertion, here, while we're studying?
M. Laitman: Through connection with friends, that is all.
Student: Meaning, it's a certain buffer between me and the light that aim of the work with the friends in our common action?
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (25:40) we learn that there are 125 degrees where a person starts to climb these degrees. Between those degrees, is there Lo Lishma or is it already Lishma?
M. Laitman: If a person rises in degrees of Lishma, then even when he is between the degrees, he is in Lishma.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (26:29) How does a person know that he's moving in the right direction?
M. Laitman: From one day to the next, the person needs to feel that he increasingly respects the quality of bestowal, yes.
Student: In addition to that, are there other landmarks that you can identify?
M. Laitman: Could be.
Student: How do you know what those landmarks are?
M. Laitman: I don't know what to say.
Question (PT 17): (27:27) It's written to feel the life in the Torah, one needs great preparation to prepare his body to be able to feel the life in the Torah. What is the preparation of the body and how is it expressed?
M. Laitman: It's the preparation or qualification of the desires that in them the person feels the extent to which he receives life from the Creator.
Question (Moscow, Latin 15, PT 6): (27:59) what is the life in the Torah?
M. Laitman: Life in the Torah is the light in it, the reforming light, the light that reforms the person.
Question (Latin 11): (28:28) How do you prepare the body to feel the life in the Torah? How to prepare the body?
M. Laitman: It is that the desires of a person do not want anything other than feeling the connection to others.
Question (MAK 16): (29:08) There is a person who feels his vessels changing, needs to check whether he is in Lishma or not Lishma? Or to actually leave the scrutiny and continue to work from a state of loneliness.
M. Laitman: Again?
Student: Do I actually need to scrutinize where I am at, at Lishma or not Lishma? Or do I just need to always work continuously in this state of loneliness? What does it matter where I am? You just need to continue to work.
M. Laitman: That's incorrect, we have a goal.
Question (Woman Turkiye 8): (29:55) Can we bestow before the completion of our corrections?
M. Laitman: That is a question: What does it mean to bestow? If I annul myself and then friends can bestow through me, then I am bestowing.
Student: She continues to ask, can a person bestow when all the corrections were completed?
M. Laitman: How? And what would they bestow? Certainly not.
Student: You can only bestow before the corrections were completed?
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (31:13) What protects a person from enjoying for himself in the light, but rather be completely in Lishma?
M. Laitman: It is a question but the Creator protects the person in every state that will be, the Creator doesn't leave us. All of us, and all of us together, and He brings us closer together.
Student: So, in that state of Lishma, He needs this protection all the time?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (32:25) The matter of contentment to the Creator. I feel that I have no grip on that direction of bringing Him contentment. In Lo Lishma, can you really come closer to such a feeling that we want to bring Him contentment? What is it exactly to bring Him contentment, how do we exactly bring that feeling closer to us – the inner inclination towards it.
M. Laitman: If you understand what is receiving, then the opposite of that is called bestowing. Then there is no problem to do actions that are in order to bestow, to friends and also to the Creator.
Student: I'd say to friends, it is understood, it's something you can look at, you can clothe in it, somehow. You can try to really feel that I want to delight in the joy of my friend, as an example, support him, that yes. What's the connection between that and bringing contentment to the Creator? I can see that I can support the friend and bring him contentment.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: How does this connect to bringing contentment to the Creator? That's beyond me, concealed.
M. Laitman: What do you need to do in order to bring the Creator contentment?
Student: To support friends, incorporate with them, love them.
M. Laitman: So?
Student: That is seemingly supposed to bring Him contentment, I just don't feel that I'm bringing Him contentment in this.
M. Laitman: When will you feel?
Student: It could be that I, maybe I'm just in Lishma.
M. Laitman: That you will truly bring the Creator contentment, then you will feel it?
Student: Yes, is it correct that only in Lishma?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: In Lo Lishma we have no grip onto such a thing?
M. Laitman: How could there be?
Student: That's what I?
M. Laitman: Right, you do an opposite thing for the time being. So, our support in the friends today is still not real, not completely.
M. Laitman: Right.
Student: Not real.
M. Laitman: Certainly, right?
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (35:44) To expand on the friend’s question: Most of the forces we invest in finding the laws of Torah, observing them. And the connection with the Giver of the Torah is on the edge of our exertion, in the final point. How do we expand the boundaries of connection with the Giver of the Torah?
M. Laitman: It is according to how the Creator expands His influence, and you seemingly become swallowed in his influence.
Student: Does it always need to be from a person and what he does? Does it always need to be like the edge of his thought, the end of his preparation?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Is there something that he can add from himself to expand on this connection?
M. Laitman: The person?
Student: Yes because it always seems like a point, like the end of the end. There, somehow, it's like a point that, how do we expand it to a connection?
M. Laitman: Yes, we still need to talk about that.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (37:43) The friends need my prayer or do I need to pray to the friends? Or is it this and that?
M. Laitman: This and that.
Student: Does the Creator need the prayer of the people of Israel in order to come to the purpose of creation?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: Also, the opposite of that?
M. Laitman: And also, the opposite, yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (38:28) My friend is asking, in Lishma we see there are 125 degrees. Are there also degrees in Lo Lishma, degrees of Lo Lishma? Or is it simply one period of time?
M. Laitman: I don't understand that, what degrees are there in Lo Lishma or in Lishma?
Student: We say that the moment a person enters Lishma, there are 125 degrees until the end of Correction, degrees of Lishma, yes? That he corrects. The question is whether also in Lishma there are degrees.
M. Laitman: No, we don't count them but 125 degrees in Lishma, we need to discuss that sometime, yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (39:55) There are friends here sitting in the lesson that some of them, you could maybe say condemn this kind of work. Meaning, several friends come to me and say to me, they would prefer to study TES because it gives more possibility to draw the light. Can you answer to such friends?
M. Laitman: They should turn to me; why are they turning to you?
Student: Student: Why, all together, not to understand that through this study we can also draw light?
M. Laitman: Certainly, we can.
Student: How do such friends need to come to the understanding?
M. Laitman: I don't know, why are you speaking for their behalf?
Student: They asked me to ask.
M. Laitman: They asked?
Student: My question is on the path, we have many stages in order to reach Lishma. It starts with the covenant, incorporation, annulment, just impregnation. What do we need to focus on, now?
M. Laitman: How we can reach Lishma.
Student: Through all those means? Meaning in the end it's just the Torah that can bring us to Lishma. But what is the most, the best, means to work with in order to draw the Torah, to draw the light?
M. Laitman: The best means that influences us and that can bring us to Lishma, to the goal, is how we study. That's all, that from Lo Lishma we come to Lishma, that's all, thank you.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (42:43) what's the difference between the Torah and what we receive from raising MAN, when we received MAD, what's the difference between Torah and MAD?
M. Laitman: It is that we study the Torah, so by doing so we draw the reforming light. That is what we want to happen, that this light will influence us and will elevate us from one degree to the next.
Student: That is called MAD?
M. Laitman: That is called MAD.
Student: Or the reforming light?
M. Laitman: Or the reforming light.
Student: That's still not the degree of Lishma of life that we read about.
M. Laitman: That is still no.
Student: And when we talk about the vessels being corrected and you can't use them, that's called to bestow in order to bestow?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (44:10) Actions we do in the Ten, with the friends.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: States in which you perform an action and in advance you know it's in order to receive, you identify it on yourself, and sometimes you manage to do it, you try to do the maximum for the sake of the Ten, not for yourself.
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: In the end we discover, at least I do, that it's still in order to receive. What's the difference between this action, where I'm trying to do something that is completely pure and I discover that it's not, and Lo Lishma?
M. Laitman: It all depends on your discernments, on your discernments. We need to reach a state where the upper light that dresses in us comes down from Him.
Student: Again, the upper light that works on us? What does it mean to come down through him? So, a person kind of feels it?
M. Laitman: Then the person feels.
Student: The actions we do in the Ten, the Ten meetings and all these exercises, they gradually at some point start to illuminate that point?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Question (Petah Tikva Center): (46:13) Are there different forms of drawing the light? Let's say, we read in Item 155, a person reads the text and TES. Doesn't understand the concepts but he has a root to his soul and from that, understanding. But because he longs for it, the will makes it, the light has one way of operating on him. Another way, friends ask questions and I'm trying to incorporate with their questions. A third way, I don't know, during the meal we're trying to connect. Meaning are there many forms or is it only according to what we read in Item 155? And all the rest is just preparation to come correctly to that text.
M. Laitman: As much as possible we need to continue to unity, to the inner connection between us.
Student: Seemingly, when I read the text and I try and I don't understand and I try to connect it's me and the text and the author.
M. Laitman: He will connect.
Student: Are there other actions to draw the light or is that the action that I learn with the friends before the text, and try, let's say TES, specifically or Zohar?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: That is the action?
M. Laitman: Yes.
Student: So that's what we're asking, we don't do a lot of such actions. We do many other actions.
M. Laitman: It's enough.
Student: Meaning, it's enough what we're doing for us.
M. Laitman: Is that okay? Nice. What's happening next?
Reader: (48:06) We're going to move to the study between the friends and we'll read TES, the Study of the Ten Sefirot.