A Talk with Dr. Michael Laitman

A New life

Being parents

Talk 215

July 25, 2013

Oren: Hello and thank you for being with us here in the "New Life" educational series with Dr. Michael Laitman. Hello Dr. Laitman, hello everyone, hello, Nitzah Mazos. Along with you, we want to learn from Dr. Laitman how to live a better life, what it means to live better, to improve the relations between us.

Our life is in the relations between us, the connections between us. We are always surrounded by people, and we have some kind of relations whether it is at work, at home, in the business world and even between countries. It is all the matter of relations. If it is good relations, then life is good, if it is bad relations, then life is bad. We want to learn how to live well. And while we are focusing on a certain aspect of our life, the insight that we learn though, can always be applied to all other areas of life.

Today our focus is on the family unit. And inside the family unit there is a special relationship between brothers. Be with us, there will be a lot to take to life. Nitzah, open the discussion.

Nitzah: So, inside the relationship between brothers, we want to speak today about a certain emotion. Maybe it is the most ancient emotion between brothers and that is jealousy. It is something that we know from the Bible and that it all started between Cain and Abel. And jealousy is something very natural that exists between brothers, and we want to see as parents, how we can learn to correctly work with this emotion, and maybe, first of all, to understand it. Why is jealousy always present between brothers. Does it have advantages or disadvantages? How do you feel about this? What is your approach to jealousy between brothers?

Dr. Laitman: First of all, we need to begin with the assumption that what is in us all comes from nature and only the use of each and every attribute can be correct or incorrect. And jealousy can be very positive. Through jealousy we advance. Jealousy and respect take a person out of this world and raise him to a higher degree. If it was not for jealousy, he would not advance at all. It is clear that it is the most driving, motivating force. So, first of all, we should not destroy jealousy, nor in general, anything. If there is any other attribute that exists in a natural manner between brothers, then it should be used in a correct manner. So jealousy between brothers, how can we put it? It should be understood as much as possible between them as a natural thing for them to use. We must show them how much it is possible and how it is given to us to be above each and every negative attribute of ours, meaning to transform it to positive.

The parents that do not put an emphasis on what each one is good at or bad at toward the other in all areas, they are helping us to overcome our natural jealousy. I need to see that my parents relate to each of us the way he is. They love me the way I am, they love the other, say a twin brother, does not matter who, the way he is. Therefore, all the issues of jealousy that break out between us, they actually do not pay attention to it. They give us an example, that in their eyes, it is not even important. So it turns out that same calmness, that same calm attitude that they are always showing us, the brothers, teaches us that we should not be jealous of one another, but rather that each is occupied with what he is busy with. And the fact that I see something in the other that I am jealous of, it should bring me to a state where the parents are teaching us how, through jealousy, we can actually reach either a stronger connection between us, or reach connection. Give me an example of jealousy.

Nitzah: There can even be simple jealousy. Let us say that one child has a toy and the other child wants to take that same toy from him. It is a simple example. There are all kinds of degrees of jealousy. Let us say they both want to play with the exact same thing.

Dr. Laitman: It is impossible in the middle. We need to teach them that what one is busy with has nothing to do with the other. I do not need to dress on the other, take his life and his example. But rather, I am myself and he is himself. First of all, we each have to have our own place in such a manner that I have my things and he has his things. I never disturb him and he does not disturb me. In other words, the attitude and the atmosphere in the family has to be that each person has his own thing. And if I see and feel like doing something with what he has and I do not have it, with this example that I feel in the family, I have to just control myself.

Nitzah: Who has to control himself?

Dr. Laitman: The child. But it is only through examples. It is only through this calm attitude within the house. And if not, then it has to be brought up for discussion.

And in a case like this, the discussion can be direct. We are not saying that he has a characteristic, but rather we are talking about a certain kind of behavior. He wants to take from the other and the other is playing with something. So of course he immediately has a desire to play with this, and two people cannot play with it, just one person. Here we have to discuss what we can do. If he started with it first, then it is his. And if he wants it now, what can we do? If you take it, you are going to take it from the other one. Therefore, you do not deserve it. And there is nothing we can do. We have to teach him that he must restrain himself until the other leaves it, and then he can take it, if he even wants it afterwards. That is the question. We need to raise them to this little higher psychological degree. I want it because he has it. And if he did not have it, I would not want it. In other words, I do not want the game itself , but because he is playing and enjoying it, I am jealous of his pleasure and it appears to me that I should also play with it.

So first of all, this is what we are talking about in a workshop. Let us do an exercise where one is playing with something and feeling pleasure from it, another one comes and wants it. So either the first is not giving it up because it is his. And the other one will have to show restraint, not take it forcibly, try to prevent himself from making an action and reach a situation where at the end of the day, he is busy, occupied and not jealous or just be able to compromise and show restraint. Let us see who gives up first and how much the other will enjoy playing with it. How long will it take? Of course not a long time. Why? Because what he wanted to play with, was what the first person was playing with, and it comes because he is discovering pleasure there. And he wants the pleasure. The minute the first person is no longer giving him this incentive, he is not really interested in it. He will play with it for a few minutes and that is it.

Let us learn from this that you do not want to play with this toy or this game. But rather, you want it because you see how much pleasure he is getting from it. You have no interest in the game, but rather you have interest in the fact that you see it in the other. Therefore, if you have no interest in the game, you can take another game and begin to play with it, get into it, and enjoy it, just like he is enjoying the game that he chose.

We need to teach them these things in life. Because afterwards, they will be shown much greater examples and will not be jealous of strong people or rich people. One can live his life and be happy with his part. It is the beginning of looking at life in a very basic way.

Therefore, we need to keep working on the point that jealousy will only be the correct, beautiful jealousy, and that what I am jealous of it is either worth it for me or not worth it for me. If I see someone who has a Mercedes, is successful, is a movie star etc., and I am not, will I beat myself up my whole life? Will I kill or steal from him? What should I do? In other words, I always need to see that I can restrain myself and choose what suits me.

Let us say I am limited in things that someone else is doing. Someone is a big athlete or something and I am a normal person. So for me, there are different areas in which I can succeed. The main thing for me is to reach my own joy of life in which I am happy and not taking him as an example and that I have to reach the same pleasure. He has his attributes and his conditions, so he is reaching it. And it appears to me that I will only be happy when I will be the exact same as him. Why do I need to be precisely like him?

There is a process here that we need to teach children to be happy with what they have. That is first and foremost. And here jealousy has to truly give us a foundation for building ourselves and verifying our attitude towards life. And gradually from that, we can explain to them that if they want to enjoy, how do they think they can enjoy in such a manner that no one else will disturb them? Because there are lots of people that will contradict them.

Let us say you want to take something from your brother, and if you play with it and another boy comes and takes it from you and he is stronger, then what will be? And there will be parents. In other words, you have to find for yourself such things in life that will make you successful and enable you to find enjoyment so that you will not scratch anyone’s eyes out. In that you are not inviting any bad jealousy upon yourself.

Start to build something together, start to do something together. And together in such a manner, if a third or fourth person comes, they will be able to join in. It should not be competitive between either him or me, or just us two and the third person. Try these kinds of games. To be in these kinds of games means you are teaching them about the connection between people. Gradually, in the future, you will be able to explain from this that the pleasure people want to enjoy the game or whatever, the surest thing is that you are making other people happy, that you are happy and that no one can take it from you And actually, everyone is happy and supports it because this is the safest game.

So, we start from the little things and throughout the years we develop him gradually until he understands that his whole life is a game and we show him how to build this process, this life in a way that it will be pleasant for everyone and not on anyone’s account. Not that you are taking anything from anyone, but just the opposite. You are contributing to others and transforming it to pleasure. That is the surest kind of development.

Nitzah: I understood the basic element that this issue of jealousy, like you say, I am actually jealous of my brother’s pleasure and not the object itself. That is what often happens. If we give him what he wants, he grabs it, is not interested and then he will throw it to the side. he grabs it, and then he is not interested and we see it on the side. And actually, if I understood it correctly, if the parents learn how to work with this feeling of jealously properly along with the child, then he gradually learns what brings him pleasure.

Dr. Laitman: But between them we really need to do manipulations. This is the place for manipulations. I go to the first one and say that will will do an exercise. He really wants it, so give it to him. So, first of all, you are giving him an example how to compromise and how to give something up. Also, let us measure according to the clock how long it will take him to drop it. If you discover that you do not need it, that you are giving it to him: “Here, take it for five minutes.” And he will then leave it. Afterward, we can sit and have a discussion about the case and learn something from it. Of course, until they understand this and can rise above their feelings, when they are deep in their feelings, they have no brain, that is clear, but gradually…

Nitzah: From what age can they really understand this feeling of jealousy?

Dr. Laitman: At the youngest age, they are not capable of rising above it and cannot differentiate between their heart and mind. But, let us say, by the age of four for sure. And the main thing is again, we to only need to see this whole spectrum of cases that we are going through with them, like you said, I am always talking with him, and when we are together I am always telling him what I see, how I relate to life, how I see this and that, and so he is learning. He is hearing it from me, how I relate to life, how it has to be, about other people, what I am watching, and then it turns out that it is all added on within him, he sees these things, they all come together and he starts telling himself what he sees from his watching.

I recommend you try talking to my grandson. You will see. It is interesting. He does not like playing with kids, but he sits on the side, he looks at them, and if you sit next to him, He will start saying, “He did this, he did that.” His attitude to life is different. When a person becomes some kind of observer, he is learning. He is learning relations between people.

Nitzah: He is aware, aware of himself.

Oren: I want to verify a basic principle. In this example of child playing and his brother coming and taking something away from him, you said that we have a discussion about it, a direct discussion about this case, because here we are not talking about an attribute, but it is behavior.

Dr. Laitman: This is clear. The case is clear. Even though it has to do with them, the issue is here in front of them. Therefore, we need to verify it.

Oren: So, when do we know when it is ok to speak about something?

Dr. Laitman: About things that happened between them? You are allowed to talk about it.

Nitzah: But it already happened. Meaning it happened and it is in front of us, then there is the ability to speak about it.

Dr. Laitman: Also, the fact that we did an exercise and that he compromised. We talk about it as well, and we talk about it transparently. You say, “Look how it took you only five minutes and you no longer want the toy. And it is good that you gave it up. And you saw now that you are not interested in it. You just had an urge to take it from him.” And next time it will be from the other one the same thing. You are teaching him who the person is.

Oren: So in previous discussions you said we should not talk with the child about his negative behavior. What did you mean? The stuff that happens between them we are allowed to talk about and we should talk about it.

Dr. Laitman: What is out there and clear between them, we are obligated to talk about and about all other kinds of personal behaviors. But about the various inclinations that he has, no. As much as possible, restrain yourself or give an example that was about what we saw in the street today. Okay?

Nitzah: Meaning there is a very clear differentiation.

Dr. Laitman: That boy is not so nice-looking because he is always picking his nose. You refer to a stranger, not him. That we can talk about. What is bad about it, what is good about it, but no one will say that is him, none of other kids. We want he himself to criticize himself, to think if he did it or not. We want to develop self-criticism within himself.

Nitzah: When you describe it, that from a young age, they need to get to a stage when they will be ready for a feeling of some maturity. Because brothers are inclined to laugh at each other.

Dr. Laitman: It says in the Torah, that in the old days, there was no young child at the age of six that did not know the laws from the center of Israel down to the south, to Beer Sheva. That is the extent to which they taught them the evil inclination. And it all depends on the environment. The environment in those days was different, it was at a higher level. And at the moment, we are in exile from those special attributes they had in those days, which were “love thy neighbor as thyself,” and mutual bestowal.

Oren: I have another question about jealousy. When you explain jealousy, you explain your point is to allow a child to develop the ability to be happy with what he has. To know when to be jealous and get a motivation to attain what you want, and also when it is something that has nothing to do with me and there is no point of me investing effort in it, etc. So when you are saying to be happy with your part and with what you have, it sounds like the opposite of having a driving force. If the jealousy that you explained from the beginning and which you said, what comes from nature

Dr. Laitman: First of all, it exists, there is no denying it. You just need to know how to use it properly. I am jealous of your success in jumping two meters. I am fat, so I cannot. But I am jealous of your achievements, not precisely in that, but in the fact that you succeeded in attaining something.

Nitzah: That you got appreciation from me, your parents, or the environment.

Dr. Laitman: No, not necessarily. It is nice to be appreciated, but being happy with his part is against external appreciation. But I am jealous of your, and that you achieved your potential, you realized yourself. And how can I realize myself, my full potential? God forbid, I have a limp. A child that is not so healthy, may be good at chess. He is good at some other game, something else he developed. Let us see the main thing, which can be seen in a person who are disabled and develops for himself an occupation, a profession, etc. that he enjoys. He usually sits on the computer or something that he knows, and he becomes very successful. You know people like that, right?

Oren: No, no.

Dr. Laitman: There are a lot of people like that. That precisely because a person is disabled and because he has no choice, he develops some breakthrough in some profession and other people who are so diffused do not succeed.

So What is happening with the kids is that the child needs to know that he will be successful in this certain thing.

Oren: So the positive part of jealousy is the motivating force to advance and awaken in a person the ability to implement what is special about him.

Dr. Laitman: Yes

Oren: And what do I learn from it? I learn that it is worth it for me to invest in something that I am good at to realize myself. That is the jealousy?

Dr. Laitman: Yes. You as a father look at one child and then the other. One child is running around and should be in sports, athletics, etc. And the other one is heavier, so take him to other activities etc. One is successful there and the other is successful somewhere else. And, whether they succeed or not, each one is in his place. In other words, it is the same with the attributes we spoke of.

Oren: What do you want to emphasize?

Dr. Laitman: That each one wants to realize himself what is special about him and not the other. He plays with his toy, I can play with the other one. And when I see that he is really into his game, then I go and get into another game.

Oren: So that is already the result to which they are aspiring.

Dr. Laitman: Yes, through examples and the workshops that we do, we will see how he much he is not attracted to the game, but to make the other person happy.

Oren: Before we go forward, I also want to verify something. You said to do manipulations one on the other, saying, “Compromise,” etc., so they will learn it.

Dr. Laitman: Okay.

Oren: In another discussion you said to pay attention to not do things that will cause fear in the the child if you do not do it. There was discussion before about relations between brothers and you said if we are talking about something we saw in the street, that someone is picking their nose, then do not say to the older one that we will talk about that, but we are actually talking about the little boy. Because then he will say that daddy is going to do the same thing to me behind my back. You are not afraid?

Dr. Laitman: No, we are talking about it out in the open and that we did this thing to teach, so that they will learn what will happen if one compromises the other. I do not even need to persuade the big brother. “I am asking you, please compromise, do me a favor and give it up.” And then, when it happens, we learn attributes as if they are not ours, but they are just dressed on us to the extent that you bring them some psychological, philosophical viewpoint of life.

Oren: What do you mean we learn attributes?

Dr. Laitman: Let us say you are looking at a child and say that he is like this and like that. You explain to your child how you see people, how they relate to each other, how they move, how they behave, play, etc. You do not criticize them. You do it as an observer, as an expert observing things objectively in an independent manner.

Oren: What do you mean? Let us say you are walking in the park, and you see some kids, but you do not even know them. And then what? I do not understand.

Dr. Laitman: Explain to him this picture: kids are playing, those are climbing well, those are doing that. This child does not really know that he is a bit fat. This child is quick, he is running. Simple, easy things that do not have a lot of depth. But he sees how I am looking at the picture and that I am not just going into the picture, but I am looking at it. I see the kids, how they are playing, what their characters are, the relations between them, each one to the rest. For each instance, toward his mother or father that are next to them or to a dog that is running around. I see how one pushes the other or lets the other one go or how they are playing together. Through all these things, I convey to him my viewpoint by always talking about how I see the picture. And the child hears everything and I am always talking. And then before he himself gets into the game, I convey the picture to him, where he is going. He is born now into a new scene.

Oren: I did not understand it.

Dr. Laitman: It is as if he went into a theater and into what scene did he come into, which scenario? I am telling him how I see it and he goes in and he is included. But the way I relate it to him, remains in him.

Oren: What is your goal toward him? What do you want to achieve with this criticism and verification?

Dr. Laitman: I want him to learn criticism and verification.

Oren: About what?

Dr. Laitman: Everything in life! This child does this and that child does that and behaves like this, until he is even telling me this child said an incorrect sentence. He will say, I heard it like this from him, but you have to say this and this, and that is correct, Daddy.” I remember, walking around with my son when he was little and someone was saying that I need to replace the car because my engine is eating too much gas. And my son said, No, you should say that the engine is drinking gas, fuel.” I remember this.

Oren: What will it give him in life to have this objective view? Will he grow up to be a state controller?

Dr. Laitman: He can be the state controller, yes.

That he lives with this logical perception of the world, understands where he is. It is not criticism. Criticism means that he is an expert about his life and from that he can decide what to do next in life.

Oren: What is the difference between these two forms? You said not criticism.

Dr. Laitman: For 20 years we begin to do this. Do we prepare kids for life? If you want to prepare them for life, you have 20 years and you always have to escort him.

Oren: What is the difference between analysis and criticism? You emphasize now that it is not criticism, but that he is verifying what is good for him to do in life. It is like what we talked about the attributes...

Dr. Laitman: But, that is what has been given to us by nature and from humanity, as to how we need to accept it. I accept it. I do not criticize them and do not come to correct them. I just come to see how I integrate into this environment to properly attain my goal. It is a whole realm of facts that I arrange together afterwards together and with this perspective,I live in it. It becomes my “I,” the person in me.

Oren: What is the issue about me not criticizing you? Why are you afraid of this? You keep saying that it is not criticism.

Dr. Laitman: Because then he will not correct himself. I want to show him that the one who criticizes is actually criticizing himself. It is a very advanced, much more advanced stage that what you see, since you see everyone in your eyes. Are they right or not, are they good or bad, etc.?

In the meantime, we observe the picture. We are filming what is in front of us, and also in this filming, we are dependent on our attributes. But afterwards, I want to gradually transfer him to the next stage, to the advanced stage. Why do you say that this is bad or otherwise? Maybe you should check yourself, maybe you need to bring yourself to zero and not see yourself as positive or negative, because these are simply your attributes.

It is like a machine that I have to first calibrate before I look at others. Where is my machine? Is it even correct or not correct? Maybe it is so warped that I am looking at everyone everyone as thieves, everyone is rude, etc. Maybe not. Maybe I will see it in another manner that what is in front of me is an ideal picture and I need to correct myself in it. And what I see is actually the Creator bringing me to correct myself, which is the opposite. But I need to prepare for a long time before I began working with it on its internality.

And then a person begins to see instead of positive, negative or instead of negative, positive. The opposite picture. He sees that everything is passing through him. And then how can he see the perfect world, how can he reach a state when the world is perfect. How?On the one condition that I identify the Upper Force within. And if I see him like this, then it is a sign that I am identifying myself with whom - the Creator in front of me? Hang on.

But we want to bring a person to correction. The correction, at the end of the day, will come whether we want it or not. Either we are going in the correct manner and we are not fighting anything in the world. Just as in the example like I talked about the kids, I can bring them to correction. This is how I bring him to a state where with just the correction itself and the good example toward others, he can relate correctly to life.

Nitzah: I want relate to another point that is usually a result of this feeling of jealousy, which is competitiveness. There is a lot of competitiveness between kids and the question is, how do I as a parent relate to competition? Should I aspire that there should not be any competition? Should there be good competition? And if there is, what does “good competition” mean between brothers?

Dr. Laitman: I will tell you the end. From there you will know and you will see how to build it. Good competition depends on how much they help one another. And this is the behavior we reward.

Nitzah: How much one brother helps the other is competition?

Oren: Okay, how do you reach that? That is the goal.

Dr. Laitman: Now, think about it.

Oren: Okay, Let us go backwards from here.

Dr. Laitman: It means that we encourage competition.

Nitzah: We encourage competition?

Dr. Laitman: Not just any competition, only positive competition. Again, we are talking about the characteristic itself that competition is not bad, rather, how we turn it around so it will be beneficial and I am not building myself in the other person’s destruction. It does not come all at once and in a few minutes. You build it gradually.

Oren: May be let us take it gradually. It is a very important, essential aspect between brothers. So, after we mark the goal, we need to create positive competition between them? How do we create the process to bring them to this point? So, let us think about a zero point. Give me a picture.

Dr. Laitman: There has to be an atmosphere in the family, which is an atmosphere where only mutual help is respected, well accepted, and everyone is thankful for that. Only mutual help. I sit next to him on the couch, watching some cartoon next to him or playing something with him and I say, “Excuse me, I have to ask, since maybe Mommy needs something from me, maybe Mommy needs help.” This is clear that it is only as an example for him. I am doing it, I am disconnecting from him, I am going to the kitchen. Let us say, after a minute or two I come back. He received an example. Okay?

Oren: What does it have to do with competition?

Dr. Laitman: That we are in a competition how to help one another. Positive competition, that is what we are aspiring to.

Oren: That is what I understood. That is what we want to bring them to. So, let us say there are two or three brothers. Let us say there are three, and we know the goal. There is simple competition between them. How do we bring them from point A to point B?

Dr. Laitman: We have to show them the opposite world. What is the process where gradually... Let us make such games that will reward the person who gives it up. It is not simple.

Nitzah: No. It sounds like compromise between brothers, giving it up…

Dr. Laitman: It is a competitive game that the person who gives up more, profits more. If it is checkers or whatever, whoever gives up more, benefits more. But not that we are just playing. We are learning that from giving up, there can be competition in that. And then we discuss in our circle why it was better than regular competition. In regular competition, I always have to protect myself, I am not sure that I am not going to get some flack from my brother, that we need to hide ourselves from our parents, that what I gain today ,tomorrow I could lose.

In positive competition, we have to go over it. Of course there is some psychological jump here, some inner transformation. But we can enjoy this, get a lot more joy from this, in a safe manner and just wait for good from one another.

Oren: “Do I have to believe you, Daddy, when you say that?”

Dr. Laitman: No, I am telling you to try with them to create all kinds of situations or games.

Nitzah: The game should never be who is going to get there first or who is going to do something. How do I create the game in such a way that the message…

Dr. Laitman: I am putting blindfolds on both of you and I am saying, “Now the both of you are benefiting, and not just one of you. You are now going to go through the living room and not bump into anything. You are helping each other get through this.”

We had that game once when we went that way. I remember, when we did it. What is the secret of the game? You have to look after whoever is in front of you and especially whoever is behind you. If you do it correctly, you will pull him after you to make sure he will make the right step and that is how you get through it. Meaning, everyone has to look after the person behind him and has to completely trust the person in front of him. And in that way you reach the goal in a safe, convenient, pleasant manner.

So, blindfold them and let them reach a situation when they will benefit and reach something only through mutual support. You can use all kinds of acts like that.

Nitzah: Through games.

Dr. Laitman: Through games. But there should not be competition between them. That the two only succeed by supporting one another. It is not just that there is no support. We need to think which games we are offering to kids and also to adults.

Oren: I am not talking about competition between kids. Let us my children and I are going to the park. One is doing distance jumps. And one jumps… Let us say we are two brothers, I jumped further than my brother. There is a competitive issue here, right? I jumped further than him. He is my brother, she is the mother, I jumped farther than him. I play football better than him. That is one aspect.

I will give you another scenario. We are learning. I get a better grade than you. Does not matter. We are drawing a picture. I draw nicer pictures than you. In each and every thing, my point for comparison is this measurement of who more and who is less. The foundation of competition is to be better. So, you need a point of comparison when I am one person alone. In whatever I attain, if I do not have brothers, then I have to compare myself to people on the outside. But if we are twin brothers who over the age of four, how does the mother deal with this never ending competition between them? We go into the elevator and they run to see who is going to hit the button. It is that way in each and every thing. We all feed off of it, we live for it.

We are always competing somehow. So if you and I are brothers and she is the mother, how does she need to relate to it? What does she need to do with that? Is it natural? Is there a way to work with this ambitiousness of competition? Yes, no or may be we should not touch it. That is the question about competition, which the mode that moves all the interactions between brothers. So, what is the right way for a mother to relate to this? Jealousy, I think we understand, is one force. Competition.

Dr. Laitman: Our problem is that we think that a person develops in manner, that he is in competition with others, and in that, he is actually like a monkey. He thinks that what another person has, he has to have. And even better, he does not develop himself. He wants to have the attribute in the other and also in himself, but who I am myself, I am not revealing, I am learning from others and I want to be this and this, even more than them.

These things bring whole of humanity to regression, degradation, with no one living their lives. Nobody knows themselves. One gets an example how to be. I look at Hollywood, I look at all these movies, I look at this whole image there, of all these heroes. What do I get out of it? Inside, we have inside some kind of feeling, in fact, that if a child is not in competition with others then who is he, how will he learn anything, what will he learn from everyone? We do not need to learn it from everyone in this manner. Kids have to be able to be altogether opposite and not be afraid that he will be different than everyone else. Friends do not need to be competitive in that manner, but rather in good ways and not in bad. One does not need to take examples from others and do exactly as they are doing, not at all. I need to have completely different standards, completely different values and direct the child towards those.

Nitzah: So what kind of values and standards can we place on this competition that is the most natural in the world? I understand what you are saying. In competition, why does it show a child trying to acquire his uniqueness by imitating someone else?

Dr. Laitman: It is the exact opposite, since he becomes like a monkey and not a person.

Nitzah: But why does he actually do it? Because he also wants to feel special. Why do I need to be like someone else? That is precisely it. What can replace this competition that is instinctive? This is natural whether we like it or not.

Dr. Laitman: Either we are going to go along with nature or we are going to correct nature, one or the other. We cannot succeed at both. I am either encouraging him to take examples from all these heroes so called or I am teaching him to have other values.

Oren: But here he has a brother.

Dr. Laitman: I need to do this with both of them, with the competition between them. If we will allow them…

Oren: We disconnect and isolate them from any external influence. You gave birth to two, you have two, so you automatically put them into a situation of competition.

Dr. Laitman: No, if you educate them, it will not happen. I will give you an example. You are with someone that you love, you are going for a walk or are running or jogging or something. You are stronger, more successful, and if you love someone, you want to be next to them, you want to be as they are and you want to complete them so that they will complete you. The main thing for you is the connection and not the competition nor your differences. You do not want to show the difference between you, but how much you are together.

Nitzah: I think we misunderstood something. Maybe this is the problem. In competition a person is measuring himself in comparison to and in relation to someone else, not himself. And it is always in relation to something. How do I measure myself in relation to collaboration?

Dr. Laitman: You want to reach the maximum collaboration.

Nitzah: But it is as if I am missing this measurement point because a person’s natural inclination to measure himself.

Dr. Laitman: To be as one man with one heart.

Nitzah: With grades it is clear I got a grade and they measured me, for example.

Dr. Laitman: That is also not good. Why do we need grades? Someone was born smarter and I was not born like that. So are you giving grades To the upper force that created us this way?

Oren: Forget about grades. I will give you an example. We are running to see who opens the elevator first. We are going to the lobby of the building. Who gets to the elevator first? It is automatic We get out of the elevator. Who is the first one out of the elevator? Who gets in the chair first? It is in each and every thing. You are talking to me, it is like high stuff. Maybe because I have four kids and I have a lot of pictures in my head. Competition is not an artificial plastic thing.

Dr. Laitman: It is a natural urge that motivates them in every moment in life.

Oren: Great, finally you are in my frequency, so now I am asking what do we do? Either we allow it to develop naturally, meaning we did nothing as parents.

Dr. Laitman: Education. The example you give a person before natural urges, artificial acts and verifications make it. They use the example until it becomes their second nature. Then instead of competition, they will have a competition for connecting. Each will give the other his place, each one will look after the other, first of all, and in a gentlemanly way.

Oren: Yes, that is correct.

Dr. Laitman: That is what education is called. That instead of his natural urges, he is now being taught another system of how to behave, to the extent that he can, becomes it becomes his second nature. The habit becomes second nature. You are teaching him until it happens.

Nitzah: Can I give prizes to understand the message? Is there something for which I can give him a prize? Because it is working on some kind of system.

Dr. Laitman: Yes. Yes.

Nitzah: Because otherwise…

Oren: I understand my motivation as a parent and for a child, it is to please his parents.

Nitzah: And then through this prize…

Dr. Laitman: We are not saying he is like an engine without fuel. We all need prizes and punishments and everything.

Nitzah: So the parent actually always have to see if the brothers have done something between them that contributes to the connection between them?

Dr. Laitman: Then they deserve pizza.

Nitzah: The prize has to be for everyone in general? Let us say one gave more and the other gave less.

Oren: Each of them, they try to encourage him. Encourage him to make an effort. Of course.

Dr. Laitman: How do we eat the pizza?

Oren: I know. It does not matter how much pizzas you buy, you buy ten pizzas, I need this many slices, I need this many.

Our time is up. I still would like to conclude. We learned lots of things about the relations between brothers. I would like you to try to summarize the basic direction. We want to learn as parents how to arrange relations between our kids who are brothers. What is the main insight in your head?

Dr. Laitman: To program the boy through explanations, examples, talks and workshops, so that he will have the correct viewpoint on life and on himself, that he will be his own psychologist, that he will know to see himself from the side and to look at himself from the same angle in life. And he will look at the world in two forms, two viewpoints: his natural viewpoint and through education and values. And in viewing ,himself he is looking at his attributes and he is in criticism from the side. If he knows how to do that, if he knows to differentiate himself from his natural inclinations, then what he differentiated himself from is called the man in him, because in his natural manner he is called an animal. That is what we need to reach, to create an image of man in him. And this man is actually the opposite of what he has been from birth.

Oren: Our time is up. Thank you Dr. Laitman. Thank you, Nitzah. Thank you, we are learning to be humans. In the meantime, all the best. New life.

(End of conversation)