Television Program, The Rungs of the Ladder

About Power

Rav Michael Laitman's, PhD talk with Oren Levy,

July 31, 2008

O. Levy: Today, I would like for us to discuss power. I’ve been thinking about it a great deal. The term power has many aspects and we’ll discuss it from all different angles. But what interests me the most is the personal aspect that is closest to people. I would like for you to answer as a Kabbalist looking at these things from above, why does everyone feel it’s very important for them to control what happens to them in life?

M. Laitman: Because the individual doesn’t sense the existence of any type of power other than his own. And there are foreign forces that can do as they wish with him, and his will is contrary to theirs, so he is afraid and must defend himself. In other words, he must be able to control the foreign influences in addition to his own internal influences, such as his drives. Without the ability to judge what has been aroused within him or against him from his surroundings, he feels unprotected. Our will to receive (which is our original nature) first and foremost wishes to control every situation.

O. Levy: Why weren’t we created differently, so that we could flow with life? Why do people feel they would like to have the reins, and the driving wheel in their own hands, why not just have fun with life? Whatever will be, will be. Why have we been created the way we are?

M. Laitman: Because we are created of the will to receive, meaning that we would like to enjoy, but we fear that at any given moment suffering will replace joy. That is where all these desires to control stem from in each and every situation.

O. Levy: In order to avoid suffering?

M. Laitman: Yes.

O. Levy: Now, if I would like to reach the point where I do control what happens to me in life, you mentioned many causes such as internal, external, forces, and I couldn’t even understand all of the details, quite a chain of things, but if I would like to reach the point in which I control what happens to me in life, what do I need to do?

M. Laitman: To control your desire, nothing more.

O. Levy: Which desire?

M. Laitman: My desire, but I know I’m not capable of that. The more a person progresses, he realizes he’s more and more and he sees himself getting weaker and weaker, influenced by all kinds of drives along with internal and external sources, and he has a problem because he doesn’t know what to do. You see now in the entire world that we have reached such a level of development in which we don’t know what to do next. As if we’ve built such a sophisticated system of relationships between countries, nations, people and everything, and we are not capable of controlling it and don’t know what tomorrow will bring.

O. Levy: It’s as if it’s out of our hands and in rage.

M. Laitman: Yes, yes, and it’s the fear that something is happening…that now at this very moment, everyone is beginning to realize that nobody controls anything. People even talk about a Third World War as if, “Okay, whatever.. What can we do, it’ll be the war of Gog ve Magog, and nothing can be done.” I can’t control myself or my family. People are starting to feel as if they control nothing, and that is good.

O. Levy: Why is that good?

M. Laitman: It’s good because we are finally beginning to look at ourselves realistically since we truly are in the hands of our nature. Our nature absolutely doesn’t take our feelings or desires into consideration, but controls us.

O. Levy: What is our nature?

M. Laitman: Our nature is the desire to enjoy, our ego. And that desire turns us and spins us around however it wishes. What should we do?

O. Levy: Wait a second; I have a question here if I may. The entire world seems to be falling apart in our very hands and we have no control over it?

M. Laitman: Yes.

O. Levy: You say that our nature is “the desire to enjoy,” how does the desire to enjoy which sounds like something positive…

M. Laitman: It isn’t positive; it pushes us towards all sorts of things that are not positive either.

O. Levy: Not positive? I would like to enjoy, what’s wrong with that?

M. Laitman: Yes, but if you do not find the source of pleasure, then you start going crazy in your search for it, without it you reach desperation, drugs and all sorts of things. Without it you reach terrorism, you look for ways to fulfill yourself. It’s the desire to enjoy, it begins to turn you in the direction of things you enjoy at the moment and tomorrow will strike you, in just a moment.

O. Levy: Is the force you’re describing like some sort of inner ruler, sitting within me?

M. Laitman: It controls us, it controls us and we can only view it from the side and realize how we are operated by it, and that we have no control over it.

O. Levy: Now, if this desire to receive, rules us, then a ruler is something that causes one to do what he wishes. If our ruler is the desire to receive, then what’s so bad about that? So he leads to us to enjoy, the direction seems positive.

M. Laitman: No, it’s not positive.

O. Levy: Between us, if the ruler wishes, the direction is enjoyment, if it is the ruler and it is the desire to enjoy.

M. Laitman: Yes, but it is built in a way that forces us to realize that we can’t enjoy this desire by itself. As much as I would like to enjoy, if I fill this desire, the pleasure dissipates. Because the pleasure extinguishes the desire and I remain empty again. And then a new desire arises, and again I run to fill it, and again it’s as if I fill it for a moment, and then I am empty again. So that my entire life is spent running after momentary pleasures with which to fill my desire. And that race is continuous until I…tire and die, that’s our life.

In addition, the media, advertisements, all sorts of things in my surroundings, they bring me all sorts of pleasurable sources. As if, enjoy this and that and the other, and I run after it, fill my life with it, running to no avail. I enjoy little things here and there for just the moment that I obtain pleasure, and the following moment I remain empty again. So if, as you say, I were to go from pleasure to pleasure further and further, like this desire to enjoy…

O. Levy: Forcing me, pushing me.

M. Laitman: Yes, so what’s the benefit of that? But the result is that from this race, I remain emptier and emptier, as is written, “A person leaves the world with half his cravings unfulfilled.”

O. Levy: So this ruler is a ruler who…what? He’s so cunning, as if he says, “I control you and am leading you towards enjoyment,” as if to a good place…

M. Laitman: For you to learn that you will be even emptier. It’s as if…as if he wants good for you, but he turns out to be your biggest enemy forcing you to work. As soon as you receive payment for your work, (achieve something), he takes it away from you. For just one moment you feel “Oh, I have achieved something.” And “Boom” suddenly you feel it’s gone; it’s disappeared until you remain empty. And then it actually continually pushes you to search for pleasure. You find it and it disappears, you find it and it disappears, and so you remain emptier and emptier.

And then you start asking “What is the value of life? What is the use of all the racing? What should be done?” It is true for individuals and for all of humanity. Through desperation, drugs, terrorism, and things falling apart, look at what is happening everywhere. It leads us to the general thought, “What is the essence of life, what is the point in life, what is this process?”

O. Levy: Within this question regarding the use of the rat-race, which I think I can personally identify with, I can say about myself that at a very young age, even before I began the big race of life, somewhere around twenty-plus, right at the beginning, I looked forward at my life and said that I don’t want to enter that race. As if I’m standing at that starting point now, I look and see that it is going to be a rat-race and I don’t want it. I think many people can identify with that.

But my question from that spot is how this question regarding the use of all the running, is connected to that leader who you say is actually very cunning and smart. It’s as if it promises us goodness and each time….

M. Laitman: It wants to commit us…It wants to show us that it is a bad ruler, so we’ll hate it, so we’ll change our nature. In addition, it eventually wants to teach us that we must leave it, rise above it. It is very cunning, our nature is very smart. And it has an extremely important role, to teach us what it really is itself, and that there is another way of existence. Not to run after recurring pleasures that disappears, not to run after pleasures altogether.

O. Levy: So, what, should we not enjoy life?

M. Laitman: No. Enjoy, but in a different way. Not to look for pleasure outside of you, search within you, where it actually exists. If I think that pleasure is external to me, then I run, run, run, run. If I want to discover the pleasure that is already internal, within me…

O. Levy: Where? In me?

M. Laitman: Yes.

O. Levy: Where? Where?

M. Laitman: Where? That’s the problem, if I think there’s something good outside, I run outward. If I already regret that and realize that there is nothing good out there, that every time I run, I remain empty, and doubly so than before, that turns me inward. Then I start thinking that there must be another method of fulfillment, since I have everything within me, and need nothing external. Rather, internally, I need to reveal the source of never-ending pleasure, it is internal, it fills me now as well, and I just need to reveal it from within.

And then my attitude towards the external is as if I lack nothing, to the contrary, I can share with everyone. Take everything from me, what I have. I want to treat everyone in bestowal and love, and here I begin to relate to the external, to the entire world, I begin to discover that I have an endless wellspring, and that deep within me, I have everything.

And here from within, where I want to bestow all the time, suddenly I receive internal strength. It can also be called the, “Upper Force,” it makes no difference. When I can take from it and continuously give with emotion, mind and understanding, I suddenly feel that if I only wish to relate to the world accordingly, not receive from it, but give to it, I suddenly give with emotion, understanding, mind and control as well. In everything, I have something to give.

O. Levy: What does that mean, with control as well?

M. Laitman: Because I can….I am not concerned about myself under those circumstances.

O. Levy: Because I have everything?

M. Laitman: Yes.

O. Levy: Because I have everything, as if I have something eternal within, the wellspring?

M. Laitman: Yes. I lack nothing. Then I reach a point where I relate to others, I definitely reach out of myself and want to connect with all of reality accordingly. Based on the extent I would like to connect in this fashion with all of reality, I begin to reveal the eternal force within me, the eternal mind, and the unique plan. Through that “help against me,” that ego of mine, the desire to receive now begins to work in the opposite form. It begins to operate.

O. Levy: That same previous ruler, that seemed to oppress me?

M. Laitman: Yes.

O. Levy: ….And forces me to run around the entire globe to find something?

M. Laitman: Right. At first it pushed me to search for something, everything external to me. Not now. Now, it actually helps me to find something internal.

O. Levy: That same ruler?

M. Laitman: That same ruler, only in the opposite form.

O. Levy: So who rules, it doesn’t rule anymore?

M. Laitman: Then it rules, of course it rules, only in the opposite form.

O. Levy: Previously, it was a bad ruler.

M. Laitman: Yes, previously it was a bad ruler, because it pushed me to search for everything that exists externally. And now, the other way around, it helps me to reach out in order to connect with others. According to how much I connect with others, I reveal the inner wellspring.

O. Levy: This situation that you are describing now, is that what is meant by taking control of my own life?

M. Laitman: And that is how I surely take control of my life, because the inner wellspring is mine. It’s an endless wellspring; it is my inner connection with the Creator who I am beginning to reveal within me. As I connect with the entire world, I bestow like this force, the Creator, who wants me to be His emissary, to bestow, to pass forward the Upper Light, joy, happiness, warmth, love, and bestowal from Him to the rest of the world.

So in accordance with how much I reach out into the world, thus I begin to reveal that this Upper Force, the Creator does operate with me. And what existed previously, my bad, egoistic nature was simply His opposite, in opposition. It used to operate in the contrary form, and now it operates straightforwardly, in the form of bestowal.

O. Levy: This new force, the Creator, who now controls me and operates me seemingly in the opposite direction, it sounds like we’ve exchanged one type of control for another. Again someone is controlling me. If before, the bad ruler controlled me, now I am being controlled by some good king.

M. Laitman: Very true. But where am “I”?

I decide, each time I have free choice to reach out, or not to reach out to connect with others and to what extent, because our ego doesn’t totally disappear. I don’t totally exchange one for the other; I exist between these two forces. To the extent that I overcome and reach out to others, that is the extent that I open inside and reveal the Creator.

It turns out that I am always between the bad ruler and the good ruler, and at every given moment I decide to what extent each one will take second place. A struggle between the two forces and I am in between. But I control the two, that’s how it works out. I decide which of them and how much each one will control me at every given moment.

O. Levy: That is very nice. Still I would like to go back a second, just to land back on Earth, and to view this issue of control from a slightly different angle. Up until now we said that the individual wants to control his life and discovers the one who controls him, the bad king. Then he reveals the good king and now becomes the ruler of them both. I would like to go back to relationships between people; I would now like to discuss this regarding others. Let’s take the concept of control towards others, why do we wish to control others?

M. Laitman: Jealousy, pride, honor in addition to achieving happiness or wealth. First our fulfillment is by our surroundings, that’s how we’re built, that’s how we feel, that we are fulfilled by our surroundings. We need to be certain that we will exist; we want to be secure for tomorrow, for the surroundings to help us, for us to be greater than the surroundings, for us to control the surroundings, for us to always receive what we need from the surroundings.

O. Levy: In order to be secure for tomorrow, I need to have corn schnitzel in the freezer for the kids, and a few bucks in the bank for the future. Why is that connected with my wish to control others, and for me to tell them what to do?

M. Laitman: Because besides such animate desires such as to assure my children’s physical existence for tomorrow, I see that I also want to fulfill greater desires, not just existing. Honor, respect, control, these are things I can not do without. To be the knowing, the known, and the one that people knows or that know of me, I control everyone with my ideas, they surrender to me.

O. Levy: Why were we made this way?

M. Laitman: Again, these are all different forms of our same ego, in order to lead us to a situation in which we are not capable of fulfilling ourselves with anything. Why? Because then when we begin to operate with our ego not egoistically but in the form of bestowal, the more we reach out in order to reveal the inner Upper Force, the God within us, then those same tendencies, control, honor, ruling, all of those things, they turn over to become opposite, thus we attain reaching out from our self.

O. Levy: How do I attain something else through my wish to control everyone, for everyone to do what I say? What good is in it…

M. Laitman: Wait, no, no, no, by that, I begin to sense the others. First I sense you, in the beginning egoistically so, how can I take advantage of you, how can I bend you, how can I do something to have someone truly submissive, an assistant, who serves me hand and foot.

O. Levy: That’s how everyone relates…?

M. Laitman: That’s how I relate to everyone, to all of life, to each and every one.

O. Levy: Can you actually see that you a Kabbalist look at people, and can see that is what activates them?

M. Laitman: Everyone checks everything in his surroundings accordingly, with no exceptions, in a subconscious way. That is the only consideration, to what extent do I control it, to what extent is it under my control.

O. Levy: Is that activated in us all the time, or does it burst at times or….?

M. Laitman: Automatically, it’s activated within us all the time. So how is that good? When I am used to relating to life, to the world and to everyone this way, it helps me to connect with everyone. And then when I wish to reach out of myself, it helps me relate to others with bestowal and love, because I have already begun to sense them.

These lines of communication that I have built in my ego regarding the whole world, in order to control them, and for them to know of me and bow to me, and how I take advantage of the entire world, these lines of communication, the control, being known, being among them, knowing each and every thing, not to miss out, etc…The fact that my ego automatically wishes to be everywhere and to hold on, I now begin to use that for the benefit of bestowal, for the benefit of love.

Then, if I reach for those same lines of communication for the benefit of others, I reveal this wellspring of love, of giving, which is called “Creator”. And then I am fulfilled with this feeling like an eternal Creator. That which I previously wanted to fulfill myself with through others, that is precisely the method through which I can fulfill myself.

O. Levy: You also use an expression of communication lines, it sounds like foundations that we build…

M. Laitman: Yes.

O. Levy: …Then it’s as if there’s new traffic, something else on those same foundations…

M. Laitman: Yes, that’s exactly how we pass through. We learn from the wisdom of Kabbalah that we pass from double concealment to regular concealment, building all of these communication lines. We know and are aware of them and later turn them around to be newly used.

O. Levy: I want to ask you something personal. When you for the first time felt the…it sounds like it’s some kind of switch, some changeover, as if a change of direction, from this direction to the opposite one, one hundred and eighty degrees along those same foundations, but like turning the car around, the car starts driving in the opposite direction.

M. Laitman: Yes, yes, when it’s a new use.

O. Levy: When you felt that switch within you for the first time…

M. Laitman: I don’t remember.

O. Levy: No, I’m not asking when. I’m saying that when it happens for the first time, is it surprising, what is it like…?

M. Laitman: It really gives light. You begin to understand that everything in your life that you prepared without your knowing, in the dark, all kinds of confusion, you begin to feel that it was all truly appropriate and not without purpose, that it was a beautiful plan, very precise, which led you to this development. And now, you begin to use everything you prepared with understanding, awareness and properly.

You begin to be happy that you can finally justify your existence, and find that you are operating with that same Giving Force, with the Creator, with Him. For He is revealed in your external relations from within, through giving and love, for He determines for you now, is your assistant, He reveals to you. However, just like running after egoistic pleasures, you run, are emptied, you run and are emptied. It’s the same thing here.

O. Levy: What?

M. Laitman: Every time you connect with others along these communication lines of love and giving, you fulfill something, it disappears and again a desire to receive rises in you, upon which you need to build greater communication lines, greater bestowal. And you build them, and they again disappear, and again you need to…and again the ego rises and again you need to….

In other words, you are given all of this in small portions. Not just like that, all your life all the communication lines, all of your ego that once existed in order to take advantage of the entire world at every opportunity, for you to do it all now, you slowly correct them to bestowal.

And then you slowly begin to feel inside how you identify with the Creator who operates from within, and how this world is actually with you together. The more you bestow upon them, the more you connect them with you, and the Creator operates throughout this entire flow, and then it turns out that you, the world, the Creator are all one.

O. Levy: Is there such a concept of controlling the Creator in spirituality?

M. Laitman: Controlling the Creator is by allowing Him to control this system.

O. Levy: I don’t understand, I control the Creator by allowing…?

M. Laitman: Allow Him to control. If you have the power to control these communication lines, you open them to His control. You don’t need anything else. You wish for Him to speak from within you, since you have nothing else other than that. Your control is by you opening the opportunity for Him to fulfill these communication lines between you and others. And then He is internal, as is your connection with the all the rest of the souls, and with the entire world.

O. Levy: Give me a tip for the end of our discussion on control. If I want to get closer to all these beautiful and superior concepts that you have been talking about, what is my first step?

M. Laitman: It comes through the proper studying of Kabbalah in a way we don’t even recognize. A certain force comes from above or from within and operates internally, so that the individual longs to connect himself with the group, friends, and with the entire world, by bestowing upon them, by revealing this eternal flowing of the light, the love and the giving, thus it operates internally. It is activated again and again and again until suddenly the person begins to feel it in his emotions and in his mind, that’s how this system works.

And the truth is that it is the miracle of the exit from Egypt but it happens. One must go through these stages as the Kabbalists tell us. I have witnessed for myself and with some students here and there that it works, and all of the stages that the Kabbalists suggest exist in this method. I have not seen it occur in any other way. Our nature, our world is only to reveal the extent to which we are under the control of the evil so we can attempt to wish for the good to control us.

O. Levy: Thank you very much, Rav Laitman.

Kabala Medya

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Conversations of a Kabbalist with his students during the day

Conversations of a Kabbalist with his students during the day

Conversations of a Kabbalist with his students during the day

Kabala MedyaTelif Hakkı © 2003-2026 Bnei Baruch – Kabbalah L’Am Association, Tüm Hakları Saklıdır

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Kabala Medya
Telif Hakkı © 2003-2026 Bnei Baruch – Kabbalah L’Am Association, Tüm Hakları Saklıdır