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A Talk with Dr. Michael Laitman

A New life

Talks on how to be parents

Talk 210

July 16, 2013

Oren: Hello, thank you for being with us in a New Life educational series with Dr. Michael. Laitman. Hello Dr. Laitman, hello Nitzah Mazoz.

We want to learn from Dr. Laitman along with you how to build our lives in a new way in order to have a new and better life, with the focus being the wisdom of this new connection between people in every place where we have relationships, whether it is with our partner, or at work. Our whole life is relationships. We learn how to treat one another better and how to develop a private tool for connecting with others from a more qualitative place where our lives will fly forward and upward. That is why we want to build in this one new life.

Our discussion today takes us into the home. The home is the most basic unit in society made up of groups of families. We want to know how to build correct relationships within these units, so that we as parents, and especially our kids, will grow up as people that are capable of connecting with their fellow man in the best possible manner and do wonders with their lives – to be unlimited and open all the options for themselves and truly develop as people.

Today our direction is how to use this educational tool of self-esteem and shame within a family in the most optimal manner, so it will really be able to advance each of us at home to a better place, to a more developed place. Nitzah, maybe you will bring us into this?

Nitzah: From the previous show, we have come to understand that there is a system that is the foundation, the motivation, and the foundation of a person, a child. On the one hand we have shame, and on the other hand we have a desire to be appreciated and respected. So, maybe I will just read two sentences from Wikipedia about shame:

Shame is negative feeling that awakens in a person and causes unpleasantness from the side of the fellow men. It takes the humanity away from a person and makes him unequal to others. When a person feels shame he begins to feel himself as lower than his fellow men and in some cases, even lacking value completely.

That is the basic definition of shame and we would like take from you how we transform shame and appreciation into to a good and beneficial tool.

Dr. Laitman: First of all, we all are the desire to receive, to enjoy. The desire is general with which we begin to develop and it develops in accordance with our age and in accordance with the environment. The environment is first the mother, then the father; and then the wider environment, the nursery school and towards everyone, I want to maintain myself in a situation, the most worldwide situation, meaning that first and foremost I will not be harming my ego as the central force.

Oren: What do you mean ego?

Dr. Laitman: Ego is...how is it defined in Wikipedia?

Oren: I do not know. What do you mean that it “will not be harmed?”

Dr. Laitman The desire to enjoy life. If I reach a situation where I feel that I cannot fill it, the ego is damaged, and then I feel suffering. Shame is the strongest feeling that occurs from my ego being hurt because it erases in me the image of an equal person. When I feel humiliated, I do not feel the same as everyone and I am always trying to maintain myself, not go out of bounds in my behaviour toward others in such a way that they will awaken shame in me in each and every situation. That is the side of shame.

And from the side of appreciation, I am also always trying to maintain myself to be appreciated in the eyes of society and in the situation that I think is the most optimal situation. And here, of course, there is a calculation as to how much I need to invest in my efforts toward my environment so that I will not reach shame and achieve appreciation. It is all based on what is worth it – what is worth it and what is not worth it, meaning again, according to the same egoistic sentence of investing minimum effort and receiving maximum profit. It depends on the environment, what my values are toward shame and toward being appreciated. What are the values?

The society gives me the boundaries. If I am among criminals, then not being a criminal, I am ashamed, and if I am among good people, then being a criminal, I should be ashamed. It can be completely in opposite directions, and it all depends on the environment that shapes the values and I work towards that, but I am always between shame and appreciation. If it is like that, then it depends on the internal environment toward a child as to what are the same values.

Parents have to start giving him those values from birth and childhood, from the smallest things. From the moment that he begins to react, they need to start showing him what is good, what is bad, and how in their eyes, it is good or bad at that age of the child. And to the extent that he grows, then those boundaries become shaped according to the new values. That is what I have to say now.

Again, we need here to not exaggerate. We need to speak to them in a way that we are not directing it, directly at the child. We must not make him feel inferior or that he otherwise has to forcibly attain the values of society. It has to be very balanced. He has to be able to critique, “Maybe yes, maybe this is should be ashamed of, and this not so much. Maybe I have to get rid of this feeling of shame; maybe I have to improve myself.”

The same thing with appreciation, “This is not for me,” or “these may be the wrong values for this society.” Let’s say that a few friends say, Let us not go to school today, and instead of that let us go for a walk, let us go play football. We will not go to class today.” So then I need to understand that my appreciation in their eyes will depend on me going along with them. It can be good in their eyes, but in the eyes of others, there is an extent as to whether it is correct or incorrect. We always need to give the child the ability to deal with everything that there is so that he will be independent toward this environment or that environment. Then he will have the ability to judge toward shame or appreciation in each environment.

These things need to gradually be built and they require many examples and discussions. We need to sit and discuss them, and not just to sit, we can walk around; it can be in any situation, in any place, but they demand explanations, guidance, and instructions. We need to direct ourselves toward building a foundation of his own within him that he will be able to not be dependent on his environment. He should be able each time to look at them in an independent manner as a judge and be able to verify.

From that, he will also receive new preparations, thoughts, situations to such an extent that in every situation, when we ask him later, “Why did you this, how did you that?” Even the smallest, strangest, weirdest things, and even bad things; first of all together, we want to verify with him that he will criticize what he did himself. We are not screaming, we are discussing if it was worth it, was it not worth it, why it was done like that. We say, “Suddenly you lost your appreciation, you lost your ability to think, to criticize, you lost your head, you went blindly after your friends, they took you to that and you did not know how to behave. You went according to your values and according to your shame.” “Was it according to your personal shame or according to their shame and values? Did you do a comparison? They took you to play football instead of going to school. Did you make a calculation as to what is the shame of not being in class and towards your parents and everything or towards your friends? What is stronger and what is less? After your got dragged after them, did you make the calculation that now I am doing this because the shame toward them, that they’re screaming at me that I am traitor, that I am not their friend etc.” That is operating on me more than the shame and calculation that I will have to give afterward to the parents and the teacher. Did I have this clear differentiation that afterward, I am putting myself in the situation that I will have to explain this to my parents as why I did this? Then I already drew this situation from myself and I would understand that if I explain it to them they would understand me that I did not have a choice, and that otherwise I would lose these kids as my friends and I will not have friends, will not be able to do this and be seen as a traitor among them, I will not be able to go to school etc, etc. Did I make the right calculation for myself and if I did it like this, then I do it.

Today in modern life, did I connect with my mother and tell her that I am in this situation that I have no choice and I hope that she will understand me. Let us say the whole class is going on strike and the whole class is not going to the lesson and I have to go along with them, otherwise I am going to lose my environment, and I was taught that losing the environment is really bad and then I am in a situation that I do not know how to verify, so I call. Every child today has a phone, and he calls his mother.

Nitzah: In a few words you gave very interesting model here. Maybe let’s put into words: you are talking about a scale between shame and appreciation and you said this scale does not work in the air, but that it always works in relation to something.

Dr. Laitman: In relation to the education I received and that same situation that I am in.

Nitzah: So, there is a ladder of values and I am always measuring myself according to this ladder. Now what you described, you described the situation where actually there are two value systems: there is the one that we have at home, let us say, what is accepted in society, and there is another value system that is accepted by my friends. And, when there is a gap between these two value systems, then sometimes I do not know what to do. What influences me is the question. What influence is stronger? Which value system will influence a child more? Not being like his friends or precisely not doing according to what is accepted by the school and parents? What will influence a child more? Which value system will influence him more?

Dr. Laitman: It depends to what extent the parents penetrated their values inside him – only on that. I checked it myself many times in life. I would be in such gangs. I do not know why, but they used to glue themselves to me, all kinds of people, kids the age of 15 or 16, the real future criminals used to be my friends. And they used to take me with them gladly. I do not know why, but they wanted me to join the gang. And I went with them a bit and felt that I could not, I could not go with them. The thought, the desire, the behaviour and everything, even though they are good, and strong, and big, and they do not care about anything, I am not like that. I was always in a middle of something, I would leave it.

I think that the education from the home is what determines everything.

Nitzah: As a parent I am very happy to hear that.

Dr. Laitman But again, it is because I received it in a very strong way.

Oren: Let us get into this issue of education in the home. We spoke about a conflict between the child’s value system and what he acquired at home against an external value system that he is dealing, let us say, with friends or people outside. Let us get into his ability to use an educational tool like shame and appreciation. Let us go inside of the house. And let us look at the house as a mini-society. Inside of the house there are a few characters and they themselves are like a mini-society. So, for a moment, I would like us to leave what is happening outside and just verify the tool itself, the educational tool.

There are a lot of interactions inside the house and these interactions are measured, like everything else, according to the value system and what we defined as good, bad, less good, etc. Let us say I am one of the children and I did something that is not according to the values that we want to carry out as the relationship we defined here in the house. I did something against it. How do you as the family member, as the parents leading this process of building a new family, how can you use this in an intelligent way in the house in a way that will not shake me up too much, will not break me too much and on the other hand, will allow me to be like a flashlight to light the way for a better path? How do you take these two reins of respect and appreciation in a house so that it will advance me to understand things, to feel things that I am myself do not feel?

Dr. Laitman: Only through discussions, where we together think that truly ask, “Who is the child after all?” He is a result of education, a result of our life. He is in a situation that he does not know how to deal with and he is not guilty. Rather we apparently missed something or he truly was not ready for such a great, new influence on him, did not know how to deal with it, how to appreciate the situation, so it did not turn into a big tragic situation. You should not turn it into a tragic situation, but rather gradually continue the verification in such a manner that each and everyone understands the situation and we are all sitting and discussing it in a manner that it is as if we are not talking about him. Who is he? He is just a result of what we did to him with our education and how we prepared him for dealing with all these foreign influences, good or bad.

And therefore toward him we, do not have any verification toward him personally, but rather along with him, we need to sit down and think, “How do we prepare you for a situation so that next time be able to deal with and verify things and do the most correct thing in life. What do you think is missing?” We need to make him into a psychologist. He has to know the correct method of life, he needs to know this.

Nitzah: I want to make verification about the system of shame. I understand that the parents need to develop him properly inside, and what is accepted today is that the parent shames his child: you did this and that and you should be ashamed. What is the difference between a parent that causes his child shame from that system that is really, really bad and shames him and something that a child understands from inside by himself and he develops this shame from inside? That is I want to understand.

Dr. Laitman: I think again, it is about discussing and talking all the time. I explain my life: this is how I was at work and this is how I was in the store. He hears everything and absorbs everything. And from there, I penetrate how I relate to life. There is no way to get this attitude; since the school does not teach him, the gang in school... we know what we can learn there. If it is possible to learn something positive, it is only from the parents.

Therefore, we need to look out for that. It all depends on us to the extent that we are always in transparent verifications about each thing in life. He learns from that. He learns tons of things, everything. What I have until today I can say that most of the way I relate to life is still...I am already old and I am taking it really from childhood, from my first impressions from life, from my parents and from my grandparents. It is different than what is today, of course. We lived in a house, on one side were my grandparents, on the other side were the other grandparents. We had one big yard and three houses. This is how we lived. There was a garden with trees and everything. I had a ping-pong table, my big dog, and I would always hear everyone’s attitude to life. That is what shaped me and there is no way to get rid of it. What I received up to the age before finishing school - that is it.

Oren: As a parent is it good for me to come to my child and say, “You should be ashamed of yourself?”

Dr. Laitman: No, no. You should not say anything. He needs to say it to himself

Oren: But how I will bring him to situation like that? Let us say he did something really, really not okay.

Dr. Laitman: We do not talk about it. We talk here and there about all kinds of things that include that big, bad thing - a little bit here, a little bit there, so that he will put together this puzzle inside of him, this understanding and approach. He needs to reach it.

Oren: But how do I react when he does the thing? That is the basic, general policy I understand, but le us zoom into the situation. That is the general policy not to say “be ashamed.” not to talk about this whole thing in a direct manner, but to divide it into smaller units and gradually... now, as a title, I understood that. Let us see how I implement it. Let us say the child comes home and he did something today that is really, really bad, I do not even want to give you example, he did something terrible. What do you do?

Dr. Laitman: You be silent.

Nitzah: How will he know that we are even relating to it and not sweeping it under the carpet, that it is not important to us?

Dr. Laitman: It depends on whether if we talk, we will be able to know how to talk. Are we prepared for it? Are we prepared to open these things up in such a way that it will be as if has nothing to do with him? Something has happened in life.

Nitzah: You mean not directly connected to him?

Dr. Laitman: No. And then in this manner to begin speaking. Maybe to hear some story, to watch some short movie, talk about things that are apparently happening like this and like that to other people. If it happened with him and a few his friends, it is good to do a discussion with them that is interesting: what they think, why they think like that and we are like big friends of theirs. Do it in a very open manner. And also say, “The same thing happened to me when I was younger.” It is good to do this when a few kids are together. “The fact you did this today, reminded me of the exact same situation that happened to me. I did not know until today that they still doing these things.” That is it. Tell them the story in a manner that they can intervene and say yes, and no, and how it was with me, and how it was with them and take it to such a place that it is the memories of life. For them it is yesterday, for me 40 years ago – does not matter. Whether it happened or not, it does not matter, it is for the sake of education. That is what I would do.

But no pressure, punishments, silence or not talking to him or something or we are mad. Nothing – as if nothing bad had happened. That is it. Otherwise, you cannot learn from that - to be silent. Or give an example from yourself, which is the best. When I give an example from myself that I did the same thing and how it happened and like this and like that, we need to think about the situation. If it is just teens, the ages of 15, 16, 17, then maybe get a few parents together and speak with them out in the open. Without families or anything, but just to relate to it simply.

Nitzah: You reminded to me of a story, now you that you spoke about. it took me back a few years to the age of 15 and it is one of the strongest memories I have from the feeling of shame. I was on my way to school, we got a few friends on a bus, and the bus was very stuffed. So, we got silly, and we had some teacher that spoke in very unclear way, she sort of stuttered, and we started imitating her on a bus, and she was ion the bus. We did not pay attention, she was behind us, and she heard everything. And I remember that at that moment, I wanted to ground to swallow me up, I want to disappear. At some point I began to think, it is interesting how she will react: will she punish us or will she say anything? And she did not say a word, just like you described. Now, that is why I remember. She did not say anything, she did not make a face, she did not even mention it, and that precisely made it even more difficult. In some place, I was praying for her to say something, for her to punish us because her silence and the way she acted for the rest of the day as nothing happened, I remember it as very difficult to forget.

Dr. Laitman: It is another example of behavior.

Nitzah: So, how can we truly... now you gave me this example, I remember how that teacher behaved in a very clever way and in this manner she really engraved in me some understanding about how to not make fun of others, of someone is different, and this shame that we tried to make fun of her, and in the end, the shame inside was tremendous.

So, still as parents... that was a situation that happened like from above, but how can we as parents organize situations? Let us say I see my child really did something. In our house, it is really not acceptable to make fun of someone, humiliate someone, and I see my child doing it. I see it and I am watching it.

Dr. Laitman: That is natural for kids. Kids like doing it, making fun of others

Nitzah: How can I truly, they go home, what do I do? What do I organize around him?

Dr. Laitman: Sometimes we need to give an example. One thing against the other.

Nitzah: Sometimes we need to exchange roles to get into the child’s shoes.

Dr. Laitman: If other people make fun of you like this. Because he does not understand or feel at this moment when he makes fun of someone, that this thing is negative. He is enjoying it, he feels high, etc. He appreciates himself more that he does not have that same fault. So, here we need to give him a feeling of the other side, and here maybe we need to let him act himself, act out roles, that he will be someone else and how they can make fun of him

Oren: I do not understand. That he will dress in someone else?

Dr. Laitman: And how this other person is making fun of him.

Nitzah: Let us say my friend was making fun of a child that is fat, and he said, “You are a fatso or something.

Dr. Laitman: So, now I am not fat, and he is fat, and I am making fun of him. But I have something else make fun of: how they started emphasizing this fault in me and making fun of it. How would I feel? I need to do it to myself.

Nitzah: I am not sure I understood again. What would I say to the child, what would I have to do?

Dr. Laitman: Now you need to be like somebody else making fun of you

Nitzah: He has to actually make fun of himself? Okay.

Dr. Laitman: Try to do it. You do not find any faults in yourself? Okay, we will tell you what is wrong with you. Let us say you do not know how to say a few worlds, as happens to children or you are weak in something, you have something wrong with you – let us make fun of it. You have to give him this feeling that the other person has, because the fact that I am making fun of someone, means that I am not participating, it means I cannot be in his place, I am just enjoying the fact that I am greater than him. I need to feel the sadness, the pain of my fellow man, and then apparently it is like a shot against that fault..

Let me give you a picture. We need to develop in a child, a feeling of his fellow man. Everything we are talking about, maybe a few talks – it is all a lack of feeling others. We talked about shame, appreciation, boundaries – it is all about the feeling of others. If I feel myself instead of teachers, police, instead of good kids, instead of bad kids, then from that I have to be some kind of machine that I am verifying in them what they are. I am dressing in them in something, I understand them, I feel them. I am not locked up in myself, and I am just myself. If I know who I am really dealing with and I can see who they are, what they are, then I know how to navigate things and I know who to belong to more or less. It is very important.

Oren: I want to give you a picture. Developing this feeling of our fellow men, I will give you a picture and how as a parent we need to deal with it. My two kids went some place outside the home. I heard from my wife when they got home and she said, “Listen, they were there, and this is what happened between them.” What happened? Let’s say they went on trip and one of them ran out of water and food and another one had food and water. Because of the bad relations between them, or some fight, one did not give the other any food or water. Then they came home in the evening and even though I had spare supplies with two brothers, I did not give it to you, to my sister or brother. They came home, and now he has a headache and does not feel good, and he is really sick. I came home, I hear the scenario that this is what happened today between two of my kids, one had it and did not give to others. Why? Because he did not feel like it, does not matter why.

First of all, I am in total shock that bad relations between them comes to a situation where one of them is really sick, he did not eat, he did not drink, and his head hurts, and other did not give him anything. What does it mean not to say to them “you should be ashamed,” or not to speak about?

Dr. Laitman: No, no, no, no.

Oren: I am in shock.

Dr. Laitman: No. You need to do something else. As if nothing has happened. You need to say, “Look, he is sick, he does not feel good, we need to look after him, let us look after him together. Let us give him food, let us warm him up, as if nothing happened. But he will begin to understand by how both of you are treating him, that he will understand how bad it was what he did. He will understand through you how you are sorry and how you are looking after his brother, what a terrible thing he did. And we do not say anything about what he did. Otherwise he will not understand. Education means him learning himself from the situation, from the case that he sees next to him, that you are shaping his environment, his theater, and from there he learns. From words he will not learn anything, you only learn from the environment, in every place and situation and not words. Even if you do not have anything left except words, then a workshop, roundtable, discussions. You create a workshop, an environment, and the influence of the environment on a person. Environment is not one, it is at least, two that they have an opinion and they can influence the third one.

Nitzah: Let’s say, I want to do a workshop now. That is a good idea. I want to have a discussion.

Dr. Laitman: Why do not you send your kids to integral education? I would ask. Before all these problems you are presenting to me.

Oren: Kids are not machines, cannot turn the kid around. You can come home every day, and every day there is a new adventure. Let us say you did a workshop, you did this, you did role playing, and you did everything. And tomorrow you have a new surprise – life is full of surprises, like this day, and tomorrow as well. So, we are given the different situations to begin to understand how we deal with them. And our goal in this discussion is to understand the tool of appreciation and shame how to work with it inside the house. What I understood from what you said here, I will divide it into – what “yes” and what “no.” No is not come to him directly and say like what would come to me naturally, “Be ashamed of what you did to your brother, he was dying of starvation, and now his head hurts.” That is what we should not do.

Dr. Laitman: Yes.

Oren: What should we do? To go with him to his brother and start treating him and from that the child to suppose to understand this?

Dr. Laitman: He does not understand anything. You are making him a sandwich and send his brother to give it to him, give him a glass of juice, ask him how he feels. It is as if nothing happened. All kinds of tricks like that, without reminding him.

Nitzah: What is the rationale behind this? I want to understand it.

Dr. Laitman: Recognition of evil. A person needs to understand, a person needs to become aware of the evil in him

Nitzah: Even a child needs to feel?

Dr. Laitman: If you tell me I am bad, I immediately think: You are bad, not me.

Nitzah: So, I go on the defensive.

Dr. Laitman: Yes, I erase it, but it comes from inside. It is like you said about the thing that happened on the bus with your teacher

Nitzah: In other words, let us understand this rationale. If somebody externally tries to drop some shame on me, I try to push it away and I put up walls to protect myself, “why did I do it?” and try to find excuses, and I try to justify myself. But if it comes precisely from me in a roundabout way...

Oren: Let us say we want to discuss this in the family, all the family together – this scenario that I explained. The discussion itself is not embarrassing?

Dr. Laitman: No.

Oren: I would bury myself underground, you’re with sitting with kids and parents and we are talking about it. You would be changing colours.

Dr. Laitman: No, you should not talk about it, no.

Oren: So, how can we do something, a family thing around this?

Dr. Laitman: Only by treating the child.

Oren: I just gave a very specific example, but let us say it is something else. I want to put it like this. Somebody did something really embarrassing, like this example that I gave, let us put it on the side, he did something embarrassing. Is it correct to speak about it together in the family forum?

Dr. Laitman: I do not think so.

Oren: You said before that technique of telling about something that happened when you were younger.

Dr. Laitman: Again, somehow we need to bring it to verification. Not just that he will be ashamed and not do it, but to give him now a new perspective about such cases

Oren: That would be the result. What do I have to do to achieve that result?

Dr. Laitman: Then we still need to discuss it. But it is not immediately, and not at the same place, and in another case. And in the case that I have, you know, kids forget things, and in another week or two, I am opening a photo album and I see myself there, as if, “Here, here, come here. I want to tell you something.” And then I tell them something about my childhood, something that happened to me or to someone else. Something that is not directed at him personally. In that I am neutralizing his protective force where he is blocking himself and does not hear anything. He begins to justify himself in each and every way, if he truly hears. We learn from life. What is not clear here? But still I would send the child to integral education.

Oren: If I was your child, I would be able to do whatever I want, you would not speak to me, you would have a big delay of a few days, let us say a week, and after a week I would get something from you, yes? So, I would be doing whatever I want, I would be going wild.

Dr. Laitman: But you lit a red light in me that there is something I need to deal with, and I am dealing with it. I am not reminding you what you did. I am telling you about a situation about what I did and how much I was ashamed and how the situation was bad, etc., without any connection to what you did.

Oren: There is that moment where a parent meets his child after the child did something terrible and; it is been brought to his attention. Let us say I am your parent, you are the child and you did something really, really bad. I know about it. Now I see you. What am I supposed to do with you? I understood from this discussion that I do not come to you directly and say, “You should be ashamed. I heard what you did today and my hair stood up.”

Dr. Laitman: No.

Oren: I do not do so. What do you do?

Dr. Laitman: You are calm, nothing happened. I do not understand why you are demanding this from him

Oren: From the child? Because he did something terrible

Dr. Laitman: But he is not a result of you? He did not come out of you?

Oren: Of course, he did.

Dr. Laitman: So, why are you coming to him with complaints?

Oren: What, do I go to the mirror to talk to myself? What about the child? He did something terrible.

Dr. Laitman: But it is not him, it is you! You educated him, what do you want from him?

Oren: So, what would I do with him?

Dr. Laitman: I do not know. I had the same thing with my child. He was in a boarding school. They had some game where they took some boards from some place and built something. You know kids, playing. And I got a phone call that they wanted to throw him out of the boarding school. So, I said to my teacher, “I do not know what to do. And he said, “Call them back and scream at them that you brought them a child two years ago, he was a sweet child, and what has happened now is the result of their education. Why do you have to get him ruined?” They need to correct him and then you will accept him back.

Oren: So, now understand that I do not need to complain to him, I need to complain to myself. So, the first stage is not to come directly attacking him, but rather to be with myself. If I was with myself, then I would not be with you now. I have to be a better parent. The first lesson I understand is first stop yourself, do not come to him, do not attack him, come to yourself.

Dr. Laitman: Yes.

Oren: The first station I understand. The second station?

Dr. Laitman: Fill in what is missing, what did not give as an education – fill it in.

Oren: That is too general.

Dr. Laitman: Not generally. This is how you learn that this is what you did not teach him. So, thank God, this happened, this case. It is not so bad, but now you have a lesson. You now need to take him in some very sophisticated manner and penetrate this thing specially, so it will be straight into his bones in the correct manner that he will not transgress this again in life. You need to plan these things a few times here and there and you need to go over the same situations, the same cases, the same discussions, verifications, and clarifications so that will be clear to him that this something you do not do. He will understand one thing from the other, not in a direct manner to talk to him about it.

Oren: What is the issue of dividing it up into units? I hear you keep saying that.

Dr. Laitman: Because you cannot do it all at once. Once it will never go in. Impression from one time is usually negative and it goes into a person in a manner that he will use it in correct manner in all directions, so that he will know how to turn it around correctly. You need a few times to go over it to be inspired by the situations that he is in, different stories about the same issue. It is truly in him as some foundation that is connected to all kinds of cases

Nitzah: I want to ask a bit about from a different angle. There are these kids that are much more sensitive to shame, and there are some that have an elephant skin, nothing touches them.

Dr. Laitman: It is not elephant skin, it is a lack of understanding, lack of participating. They are more blocked off, they are more spoiled, but it is possible to come to them, to reach them maybe through learning something. We need to penetrate inside of this little person through the elephant skin, of course, because kids are very resilient, especially in our generation, they are very egoistic. They are not capable of listening or participating with someone. They are always behaving according to the formats that they receive from TV, from the Internet, from all those things. That is why I say that we need to have a very strong environment. I do not think that the parents have time, strength, patience or knowledge to deal with kids. I think we have to do this inside schools and in extra curriculum activities of integral education.

Nitzah: Many times in a family I see two kids, they could be brothers with a year or two between them. One of them does not care at all about what they say, but they grew up in the same house with the same values and everything. The other one is very, very sensitive and if you just say one word in the wrong place, he is insulted and everything. And the one – you can scream at him from today to tomorrow – nothing will move him. You see very big gaps. And many times it brings questions.

Dr. Laitman: We are all different from each other, thank God. And only by integrating in the integral education we can reach the situation where we are all integrated in one another

Oren: I would like to raise another aspect. We spoke about shame and appreciation, and were speaking about shame up to now. How is it correct to use appreciation in the house as an educational tool for advancing the child toward the values that we want him to acquire and that we want him to develop in relation to other people in the house?

Dr. Laitman: We need to appreciate him like a big person, first of all. You want to be treated like a big person, you need to behave like a big person, and we appreciate you like this. And we really treat him like a big person, not teh-teh-te-teh, but really and truly like we treat each and every person. Today they grow up very quickly, and they become big very early.

Oren: What does it mean to treat him like a big person? Let us say, how old is he? Give me an actual example.

Dr. Laitman: We are talking about eight or nine, let us say an 8-year-old child. He is an adult in every way.

Oren: What does it mean actually?

Dr. Laitman: It actually means that I treat him like a man. Like a man with responsibility and attitude and participation. I treat him this manner; even consult with him here and there. I truly present to him an attitude that obligates him to be responsible and big in how he relates to himself in this environment and toward me.

Oren: Can you give me an example?

Dr. Laitman: I ask him, “What do you think we should do? Should we walk or take the car? Should we do this or that in the evening? Maybe will do this, may be will do that, tell me please. What do you think?” I truly want to raise him up. Through this, I do not show that I am small or in need of this. I raise him up, and it has to be very much felt.

Nitzah: In other words you take his opinion into account. A child many times feels, “Are they taking my opinion into account or not? They do not see me, I am invisible.” So, there is a connection between the appreciation that the parents give and the self-esteem that a child grows up with. We know that a child’s self-esteem is both from this connection with his parents to the extent that he got feedback, not just about positive reinforcement and compliments, but what you said, that they are consulted with, and they have their opinion taken into account, into consideration.

Dr. Laitman: It is taken into consideration as a friend in the family, as a member of the family

Oren: Can I consult with one of my kids about how to deal with something bad that another child did?

Dr. Laitman: Yes, that is very good, yes! Something what his brother did? His brother? I do not know if it is worth it. If it is the correct preparation – yes; but just like that – no. About another child...

Oren: No, I am talking about his brother. Is it worth it for me... how should I use appreciation inside this family group? Is it worth for us to say, “Good for this girl, our wonderful girl Nitzah who did this and that?” Is this good for us to compliment one another? How do we use the other side of the coin?

Dr. Laitman: I cannot react to things like that, because you are cutting it out of context. You are cutting something out of life and we do not know about everything else happening in life. I do not know about preparations or anything.

Oren: I am talking about a situation when I am rebuilding my family from new, based on the integral approach. There are three or four kids, there are small kids and teens. I want to start formatting my family according integral education. Should we use appreciation in the house?

Dr. Laitman: Yes, but on the condition that it will not awaken jealousy, bad jealousy in others, from other kids. Yes, that it will awaken in them a jealousy to grow up like her, to be like her. How that happens is according to the situation in the family. If there are good relations, then jealousy adds to everything

Nitzah: It reminds me that a friend told me that she has two kids. Her oldest child is really good and gets a lot of positive reinforcement and compliments. And the smaller child is three years younger, and he is really naughty. He does everything the opposite, and they are trying to understand why it is happening. Why is it happening that there is such a gap? And another mother said, “You know each child wants to be special, he wants to feel his specialness”. So, the big child, you are always strengthening him and giving him positive feedback. And the little child he also wants, so he discovered that his way is to get negative reinforcement. So, the question is if we have such a situation how do we transform it, how do we cause this small child to also feel like he is getting enforcement, and not because no because...

Dr. Laitman: It is a big problem, because he will never be like the big one, so it is not worth it for him to even go to that direction. It is not worth it for him.

Nitzah: It is worth it for him. He wants to get his attention in another way, the good ones, the bigger ones.

Dr. Laitman: Good. You need to verify what he can be good at, something that is different from the older one. He must excel in something like a sport, some special activity for which he gets compliments. And in that way he feels special. But he can never be like the older one or go in the same direction.

Nitzah: So, in other words there is another element here?

Dr. Laitman: He has to be different.

Nitzah: A parent has to help the young child? Let us say the older one is good at homework, the younger one is very sporty; so he should be strengthening in that direction?

Dr. Laitman: Yes, you should give him compliments about that.

Oren: Okay, our time is up. How would you summarize this whole issue of shame and appreciation inside the family?

Dr. Laitman: It is two forces; the strongest values that influence us in everything. We should use them to shape little ones’ personalities and adults as well. We are missing using shame and appreciation toward each and every person, and then we would be in a different place.

Oren: Thank you Dr. Laitman, thank you Nitzah, thank you for being with us until next time. New Life.