Television Program, The Rungs of the Ladder
About Power
Rav Michael Laitman's, PhD talk with Oren Levy,
July 31, 2008
O. Levy: Today, I would like for us to discuss power. I’ve been thinking about it a great deal. The term power has many aspects and we’ll discuss it from all different angles. But what interests me the most is the personal aspect that is closest to people. I would like for you to answer as a Kabbalist looking at these things from above, why does everyone feel it’s very important for them to control what happens to them in life?
M.
Laitman:
Because
the
individual
doesn’t
sense
the
existence
of
any
type
of
power
other
than
his
own.
And
there
are
foreign
forces
that
can
do
as
they
wish
with
him,
and
his
will
is
contrary
to
theirs,
so
he
is
afraid
and
must
defend
himself.
In
other
words,
he
must
be
able
to
control
the
foreign
influences
in
addition
to
his
own
internal
influences,
such
as
his
drives.
Without
the
ability
to
judge
what
has
been
aroused
within
him
or
against
him
from
his
surroundings,
he
feels
unprotected.
Our
will
to
receive
(which
is
our
original
nature)
first
and
foremost
wishes
to
control
every
situation.
O. Levy: Why weren’t we created differently, so that we could flow with life? Why do people feel they would like to have the reins, and the driving wheel in their own hands, why not just have fun with life? Whatever will be, will be. Why have we been created the way we are?
M.
Laitman:
Because
we
are
created
of
the
will
to
receive,
meaning
that
we
would
like
to
enjoy,
but
we
fear
that
at
any
given
moment
suffering
will
replace
joy.
That
is
where
all
these
desires
to
control
stem
from
in
each
and
every
situation.
O. Levy: In order to avoid suffering?
M.
Laitman:
Yes.
O. Levy: Now, if I would like to reach the point where I do control what happens to me in life, you mentioned many causes such as internal, external, forces, and I couldn’t even understand all of the details, quite a chain of things, but if I would like to reach the point in which I control what happens to me in life, what do I need to do?
M.
Laitman:
To
control
your
desire,
nothing
more.
O. Levy: Which desire?
M.
Laitman:
My
desire,
but
I
know
I’m
not
capable
of
that.
The
more
a
person
progresses,
he
realizes
he’s
more
and
more
and
he
sees
himself
getting
weaker
and
weaker,
influenced
by
all
kinds
of
drives
along
with
internal
and
external
sources,
and
he
has
a
problem
because
he
doesn’t
know
what
to
do.
You
see
now
in
the
entire
world
that
we
have
reached
such
a
level
of
development
in
which
we
don’t
know
what
to
do
next.
As
if
we’ve
built
such
a
sophisticated
system
of
relationships
between
countries,
nations,
people
and
everything,
and
we
are
not
capable
of
controlling
it
and
don’t
know
what
tomorrow
will
bring.
O. Levy: It’s as if it’s out of our hands and in rage.
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
yes,
and
it’s
the
fear
that
something
is
happening…that
now
at
this
very
moment,
everyone
is
beginning
to
realize
that
nobody
controls
anything.
People
even
talk
about
a
Third
World
War
as
if,
“Okay,
whatever..
What
can
we
do,
it’ll
be
the
war
of
Gog
ve
Magog,
and
nothing
can
be
done.”
I
can’t
control
myself
or
my
family.
People
are
starting
to
feel
as
if
they
control
nothing,
and
that
is
good.
O. Levy: Why is that good?
M.
Laitman:
It’s
good
because
we
are
finally
beginning
to
look
at
ourselves
realistically
since
we
truly
are
in
the
hands
of
our
nature.
Our
nature
absolutely
doesn’t
take
our
feelings
or
desires
into
consideration,
but
controls
us.
O. Levy: What is our nature?
M.
Laitman:
Our
nature
is
the
desire
to
enjoy,
our
ego.
And
that
desire
turns
us
and
spins
us
around
however
it
wishes.
What
should
we
do?
O. Levy: Wait a second; I have a question here if I may. The entire world seems to be falling apart in our very hands and we have no control over it?
M.
Laitman:
Yes.
O. Levy: You say that our nature is “the desire to enjoy,” how does the desire to enjoy which sounds like something positive…
M.
Laitman:
It
isn’t
positive;
it
pushes
us
towards
all
sorts
of
things
that
are
not
positive
either.
O. Levy: Not positive? I would like to enjoy, what’s wrong with that?
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
but
if
you
do
not
find
the
source
of
pleasure,
then
you
start
going
crazy
in
your
search
for
it,
without
it
you
reach
desperation,
drugs
and
all
sorts
of
things.
Without
it
you
reach
terrorism,
you
look
for
ways
to
fulfill
yourself.
It’s
the
desire
to
enjoy,
it
begins
to
turn
you
in
the
direction
of
things
you
enjoy
at
the
moment
and
tomorrow
will
strike
you,
in
just
a
moment.
O. Levy: Is the force you’re describing like some sort of inner ruler, sitting within me?
M.
Laitman:
It
controls
us,
it
controls
us
and
we
can
only
view
it
from
the
side
and
realize
how
we
are
operated
by
it,
and
that
we
have
no
control
over
it.
O. Levy: Now, if this desire to receive, rules us, then a ruler is something that causes one to do what he wishes. If our ruler is the desire to receive, then what’s so bad about that? So he leads to us to enjoy, the direction seems positive.
M.
Laitman:
No,
it’s
not
positive.
O. Levy: Between us, if the ruler wishes, the direction is enjoyment, if it is the ruler and it is the desire to enjoy.
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
but
it
is
built
in
a
way
that
forces
us
to
realize
that
we
can’t
enjoy
this
desire
by
itself.
As
much
as
I
would
like
to
enjoy,
if
I
fill
this
desire,
the
pleasure
dissipates.
Because
the
pleasure
extinguishes
the
desire
and
I
remain
empty
again.
And
then
a
new
desire
arises,
and
again
I
run
to
fill
it,
and
again
it’s
as
if
I
fill
it
for
a
moment,
and
then
I
am
empty
again.
So
that
my
entire
life
is
spent
running
after
momentary
pleasures
with
which
to
fill
my
desire.
And
that
race
is
continuous
until
I…tire
and
die,
that’s
our
life.
In addition, the media, advertisements, all sorts of things in my surroundings, they bring me all sorts of pleasurable sources. As if, enjoy this and that and the other, and I run after it, fill my life with it, running to no avail. I enjoy little things here and there for just the moment that I obtain pleasure, and the following moment I remain empty again. So if, as you say, I were to go from pleasure to pleasure further and further, like this desire to enjoy…
O. Levy: Forcing me, pushing me.
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
so
what’s
the
benefit
of
that?
But
the
result
is
that
from
this
race,
I
remain
emptier
and
emptier,
as
is
written,
“A
person
leaves
the
world
with
half
his
cravings
unfulfilled.”
O.
Levy:
So
this
ruler
is
a
ruler
who…what?
He’s
so
cunning,
as
if
he
says,
“I
control
you
and
am
leading
you
towards
enjoyment,”
as
if
to
a
good
place…
M.
Laitman:
For
you
to
learn
that
you
will
be
even
emptier.
It’s
as
if…as
if
he
wants
good
for
you,
but
he
turns
out
to
be
your
biggest
enemy
forcing
you
to
work.
As
soon
as
you
receive
payment
for
your
work,
(achieve
something),
he
takes
it
away
from
you.
For
just
one
moment
you
feel
“Oh,
I
have
achieved
something.”
And
“Boom”
suddenly
you
feel
it’s
gone;
it’s
disappeared
until
you
remain
empty.
And
then
it
actually
continually
pushes
you
to
search
for
pleasure.
You
find
it
and
it
disappears,
you
find
it
and
it
disappears,
and
so
you
remain
emptier
and
emptier.
And then you start asking “What is the value of life? What is the use of all the racing? What should be done?” It is true for individuals and for all of humanity. Through desperation, drugs, terrorism, and things falling apart, look at what is happening everywhere. It leads us to the general thought, “What is the essence of life, what is the point in life, what is this process?”
O. Levy: Within this question regarding the use of the rat-race, which I think I can personally identify with, I can say about myself that at a very young age, even before I began the big race of life, somewhere around twenty-plus, right at the beginning, I looked forward at my life and said that I don’t want to enter that race. As if I’m standing at that starting point now, I look and see that it is going to be a rat-race and I don’t want it. I think many people can identify with that.
But my question from that spot is how this question regarding the use of all the running, is connected to that leader who you say is actually very cunning and smart. It’s as if it promises us goodness and each time….
M.
Laitman:
It
wants
to
commit
us…It
wants
to
show
us
that
it
is
a
bad
ruler,
so
we’ll
hate
it,
so
we’ll
change
our
nature.
In
addition,
it
eventually
wants
to
teach
us
that
we
must
leave
it,
rise
above
it.
It
is
very
cunning,
our
nature
is
very
smart.
And
it
has
an
extremely
important
role,
to
teach
us
what
it
really
is
itself,
and
that
there
is
another
way
of
existence.
Not
to
run
after
recurring
pleasures
that
disappears,
not
to
run
after
pleasures
altogether.
O. Levy: So, what, should we not enjoy life?
M.
Laitman:
No.
Enjoy,
but
in
a
different
way.
Not
to
look
for
pleasure
outside
of
you,
search
within
you,
where
it
actually
exists.
If
I
think
that
pleasure
is
external
to
me,
then
I
run,
run,
run,
run.
If
I
want
to
discover
the
pleasure
that
is
already
internal,
within
me…
O. Levy: Where? In me?
M.
Laitman:
Yes.
O. Levy: Where? Where?
M.
Laitman:
Where?
That’s
the
problem,
if
I
think
there’s
something
good
outside,
I
run
outward.
If
I
already
regret
that
and
realize
that
there
is
nothing
good
out
there,
that
every
time
I
run,
I
remain
empty,
and
doubly
so
than
before,
that
turns
me
inward.
Then
I
start
thinking
that
there
must
be
another
method
of
fulfillment,
since
I
have
everything
within
me,
and
need
nothing
external.
Rather,
internally,
I
need
to
reveal
the
source
of
never-ending
pleasure,
it
is
internal,
it
fills
me
now
as
well,
and
I
just
need
to
reveal
it
from
within.
And then my attitude towards the external is as if I lack nothing, to the contrary, I can share with everyone. Take everything from me, what I have. I want to treat everyone in bestowal and love, and here I begin to relate to the external, to the entire world, I begin to discover that I have an endless wellspring, and that deep within me, I have everything.
And here from within, where I want to bestow all the time, suddenly I receive internal strength. It can also be called the, “Upper Force,” it makes no difference. When I can take from it and continuously give with emotion, mind and understanding, I suddenly feel that if I only wish to relate to the world accordingly, not receive from it, but give to it, I suddenly give with emotion, understanding, mind and control as well. In everything, I have something to give.
O. Levy: What does that mean, with control as well?
M.
Laitman:
Because
I
can….I
am
not
concerned
about
myself
under
those
circumstances.
O.
Levy:
Because
I
have
everything?
M.
Laitman:
Yes.
O. Levy: Because I have everything, as if I have something eternal within, the wellspring?
M. Laitman: Yes. I lack nothing. Then I reach a point where I relate to others, I definitely reach out of myself and want to connect with all of reality accordingly. Based on the extent I would like to connect in this fashion with all of reality, I begin to reveal the eternal force within me, the eternal mind, and the unique plan. Through that “help against me,” that ego of mine, the desire to receive now begins to work in the opposite form. It begins to operate.
O. Levy: That same previous ruler, that seemed to oppress me?
M.
Laitman:
Yes.
O. Levy: ….And forces me to run around the entire globe to find something?
M.
Laitman:
Right.
At
first
it
pushed
me
to
search
for
something,
everything
external
to
me.
Not
now.
Now,
it
actually
helps
me
to
find
something
internal.
O. Levy: That same ruler?
M.
Laitman:
That
same
ruler,
only
in
the
opposite
form.
O. Levy: So who rules, it doesn’t rule anymore?
M.
Laitman:
Then
it
rules,
of
course
it
rules,
only
in
the
opposite
form.
O. Levy: Previously, it was a bad ruler.
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
previously
it
was
a
bad
ruler,
because
it
pushed
me
to
search
for
everything
that
exists
externally.
And
now,
the
other
way
around,
it
helps
me
to
reach
out
in
order
to
connect
with
others.
According
to
how
much
I
connect
with
others,
I
reveal
the
inner
wellspring.
O. Levy: This situation that you are describing now, is that what is meant by taking control of my own life?
M.
Laitman:
And
that
is
how
I
surely
take
control
of
my
life,
because
the
inner
wellspring
is
mine.
It’s
an
endless
wellspring;
it
is
my
inner
connection
with
the
Creator
who
I
am
beginning
to
reveal
within
me.
As
I
connect
with
the
entire
world,
I
bestow
like
this
force,
the
Creator,
who
wants
me
to
be
His
emissary,
to
bestow,
to
pass
forward
the
Upper
Light,
joy,
happiness,
warmth,
love,
and
bestowal
from
Him
to
the
rest
of
the
world.
So in accordance with how much I reach out into the world, thus I begin to reveal that this Upper Force, the Creator does operate with me. And what existed previously, my bad, egoistic nature was simply His opposite, in opposition. It used to operate in the contrary form, and now it operates straightforwardly, in the form of bestowal.
O. Levy: This new force, the Creator, who now controls me and operates me seemingly in the opposite direction, it sounds like we’ve exchanged one type of control for another. Again someone is controlling me. If before, the bad ruler controlled me, now I am being controlled by some good king.
M.
Laitman:
Very
true.
But
where
am
“I”?
I decide, each time I have free choice to reach out, or not to reach out to connect with others and to what extent, because our ego doesn’t totally disappear. I don’t totally exchange one for the other; I exist between these two forces. To the extent that I overcome and reach out to others, that is the extent that I open inside and reveal the Creator.
It turns out that I am always between the bad ruler and the good ruler, and at every given moment I decide to what extent each one will take second place. A struggle between the two forces and I am in between. But I control the two, that’s how it works out. I decide which of them and how much each one will control me at every given moment.
O. Levy: That is very nice. Still I would like to go back a second, just to land back on Earth, and to view this issue of control from a slightly different angle. Up until now we said that the individual wants to control his life and discovers the one who controls him, the bad king. Then he reveals the good king and now becomes the ruler of them both. I would like to go back to relationships between people; I would now like to discuss this regarding others. Let’s take the concept of control towards others, why do we wish to control others?
M.
Laitman:
Jealousy,
pride,
honor
in
addition
to
achieving
happiness
or
wealth.
First
our
fulfillment
is
by
our
surroundings,
that’s
how
we’re
built,
that’s
how
we
feel,
that
we
are
fulfilled
by
our
surroundings.
We
need
to
be
certain
that
we
will
exist;
we
want
to
be
secure
for
tomorrow,
for
the
surroundings
to
help
us,
for
us
to
be
greater
than
the
surroundings,
for
us
to
control
the
surroundings,
for
us
to
always
receive
what
we
need
from
the
surroundings.
O. Levy: In order to be secure for tomorrow, I need to have corn schnitzel in the freezer for the kids, and a few bucks in the bank for the future. Why is that connected with my wish to control others, and for me to tell them what to do?
M.
Laitman:
Because
besides
such
animate
desires
such
as
to
assure
my
children’s
physical
existence
for
tomorrow,
I
see
that
I
also
want
to
fulfill
greater
desires,
not
just
existing.
Honor,
respect,
control,
these
are
things
I
can
not
do
without.
To
be
the
knowing,
the
known,
and
the
one
that
people
knows
or
that
know
of
me,
I
control
everyone
with
my
ideas,
they
surrender
to
me.
O. Levy: Why were we made this way?
M.
Laitman:
Again,
these
are
all
different
forms
of
our
same
ego,
in
order
to
lead
us
to
a
situation
in
which
we
are
not
capable
of
fulfilling
ourselves
with
anything.
Why?
Because
then
when
we
begin
to
operate
with
our
ego
not
egoistically
but
in
the
form
of
bestowal,
the
more
we
reach
out
in
order
to
reveal
the
inner
Upper
Force,
the
God
within
us,
then
those
same
tendencies,
control,
honor,
ruling,
all
of
those
things,
they
turn
over
to
become
opposite,
thus
we
attain
reaching
out
from
our
self.
O. Levy: How do I attain something else through my wish to control everyone, for everyone to do what I say? What good is in it…
M.
Laitman:
Wait,
no,
no,
no,
by
that,
I
begin
to
sense
the
others.
First
I
sense
you,
in
the
beginning
egoistically
so,
how
can
I
take
advantage
of
you,
how
can
I
bend
you,
how
can
I
do
something
to
have
someone
truly
submissive,
an
assistant,
who
serves
me
hand
and
foot.
O. Levy: That’s how everyone relates…?
M.
Laitman:
That’s
how
I
relate
to
everyone,
to
all
of
life,
to
each
and
every
one.
O. Levy: Can you actually see that you a Kabbalist look at people, and can see that is what activates them?
M.
Laitman:
Everyone
checks
everything
in
his
surroundings
accordingly,
with
no
exceptions,
in
a
subconscious
way.
That
is
the
only
consideration,
to
what
extent
do
I
control
it,
to
what
extent
is
it
under
my
control.
O. Levy: Is that activated in us all the time, or does it burst at times or….?
M.
Laitman:
Automatically,
it’s
activated
within
us
all
the
time.
So
how
is
that
good?
When
I
am
used
to
relating
to
life,
to
the
world
and
to
everyone
this
way,
it
helps
me
to
connect
with
everyone.
And
then
when
I
wish
to
reach
out
of
myself,
it
helps
me
relate
to
others
with
bestowal
and
love,
because
I
have
already
begun
to
sense
them.
These lines of communication that I have built in my ego regarding the whole world, in order to control them, and for them to know of me and bow to me, and how I take advantage of the entire world, these lines of communication, the control, being known, being among them, knowing each and every thing, not to miss out, etc…The fact that my ego automatically wishes to be everywhere and to hold on, I now begin to use that for the benefit of bestowal, for the benefit of love.
Then, if I reach for those same lines of communication for the benefit of others, I reveal this wellspring of love, of giving, which is called “Creator”. And then I am fulfilled with this feeling like an eternal Creator. That which I previously wanted to fulfill myself with through others, that is precisely the method through which I can fulfill myself.
O. Levy: You also use an expression of communication lines, it sounds like foundations that we build…
M.
Laitman:
Yes.
O. Levy: …Then it’s as if there’s new traffic, something else on those same foundations…
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
that’s
exactly
how
we
pass
through.
We
learn
from
the
wisdom
of
Kabbalah
that
we
pass
from
double
concealment
to
regular
concealment,
building
all
of
these
communication
lines.
We
know
and
are
aware
of
them
and
later
turn
them
around
to
be
newly
used.
O. Levy: I want to ask you something personal. When you for the first time felt the…it sounds like it’s some kind of switch, some changeover, as if a change of direction, from this direction to the opposite one, one hundred and eighty degrees along those same foundations, but like turning the car around, the car starts driving in the opposite direction.
M.
Laitman:
Yes,
yes,
when
it’s
a
new
use.
O. Levy: When you felt that switch within you for the first time…
M. Laitman: I don’t remember.
O. Levy: No, I’m not asking when. I’m saying that when it happens for the first time, is it surprising, what is it like…?
M.
Laitman:
It
really
gives
light.
You
begin
to
understand
that
everything
in
your
life
that
you
prepared
without
your
knowing,
in
the
dark,
all
kinds
of
confusion,
you
begin
to
feel
that
it
was
all
truly
appropriate
and
not
without
purpose,
that
it
was
a
beautiful
plan,
very
precise,
which
led
you
to
this
development.
And
now,
you
begin
to
use
everything
you
prepared
with
understanding,
awareness
and
properly.
You begin to be happy that you can finally justify your existence, and find that you are operating with that same Giving Force, with the Creator, with Him. For He is revealed in your external relations from within, through giving and love, for He determines for you now, is your assistant, He reveals to you. However, just like running after egoistic pleasures, you run, are emptied, you run and are emptied. It’s the same thing here.
O. Levy: What?
M.
Laitman:
Every
time
you
connect
with
others
along
these
communication
lines
of
love
and
giving,
you
fulfill
something,
it
disappears
and
again
a
desire
to
receive
rises
in
you,
upon
which
you
need
to
build
greater
communication
lines,
greater
bestowal.
And
you
build
them,
and
they
again
disappear,
and
again
you
need
to…and
again
the
ego
rises
and
again
you
need
to….
In other words, you are given all of this in small portions. Not just like that, all your life all the communication lines, all of your ego that once existed in order to take advantage of the entire world at every opportunity, for you to do it all now, you slowly correct them to bestowal.
And then you slowly begin to feel inside how you identify with the Creator who operates from within, and how this world is actually with you together. The more you bestow upon them, the more you connect them with you, and the Creator operates throughout this entire flow, and then it turns out that you, the world, the Creator are all one.
O. Levy: Is there such a concept of controlling the Creator in spirituality?
M.
Laitman:
Controlling
the
Creator
is
by
allowing
Him
to
control
this
system.
O. Levy: I don’t understand, I control the Creator by allowing…?
M.
Laitman:
Allow
Him
to
control.
If
you
have
the
power
to
control
these
communication
lines,
you
open
them
to
His
control.
You
don’t
need
anything
else.
You
wish
for
Him
to
speak
from
within
you,
since
you
have
nothing
else
other
than
that.
Your
control
is
by
you
opening
the
opportunity
for
Him
to
fulfill
these
communication
lines
between
you
and
others.
And
then
He
is
internal,
as
is
your
connection
with
the
all
the
rest
of
the
souls,
and
with
the
entire
world.
O. Levy: Give me a tip for the end of our discussion on control. If I want to get closer to all these beautiful and superior concepts that you have been talking about, what is my first step?
M.
Laitman:
It
comes
through
the
proper
studying
of
Kabbalah
in
a
way
we
don’t
even
recognize.
A
certain
force
comes
from
above
or
from
within
and
operates
internally,
so
that
the
individual
longs
to
connect
himself
with
the
group,
friends,
and
with
the
entire
world,
by
bestowing
upon
them,
by
revealing
this
eternal
flowing
of
the
light,
the
love
and
the
giving,
thus
it
operates
internally.
It
is
activated
again
and
again
and
again
until
suddenly
the
person
begins
to
feel
it
in
his
emotions
and
in
his
mind,
that’s
how
this
system
works.
And the truth is that it is the miracle of the exit from Egypt but it happens. One must go through these stages as the Kabbalists tell us. I have witnessed for myself and with some students here and there that it works, and all of the stages that the Kabbalists suggest exist in this method. I have not seen it occur in any other way. Our nature, our world is only to reveal the extent to which we are under the control of the evil so we can attempt to wish for the good to control us.
O. Levy: Thank you very much, Rav Laitman.