A Talk with Dr. Michael Laitman

A New life

Talk number 123

Oren: Hello, and thank you for joining us in this series of shows with Michael Laitman and New Life. Hello Michael Laitman.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Hello everyone.

Oren: Hello everyone, hello Nitzah Mazoz.

Nitzah: Hello.

Oren: So we are talking about a new way of work, and we’re inviting you to join us. We’ve touched upon all kinds of subjects. Today, we would like to talk about perhaps one of the most important things in the organization, and in general in every society. We always have people who lead groups of people, so today we’d like to talk about the manager in an organization and learn from Michael Laitman all kinds of tips about how to manage an organization in accordance with the view of integral education. Also, each one of us can take tips for our own lives, for the organization in which we work, and understand how we can live our own lives better in accordance to the integral view. So Nitzah:, why don’t you begin the conversation and lead it forward.

Nitzah: Today a lot of energy is invested in turning managers into leaders. We understand that being a manger isn’t enough. To be a leader means to be able to shape the values of the environment in which one is managing, to be able to influence the workers: the way they are thinking, the way they operate, the way they work, the way they think. A leader has a lot of influence once one acquires the ability to invest his workers into the organization, to motivate them to do the job. There is an expression that says that leaders are ones that can cause normal or average people to do an exceptional work. So today we’d like to discern the image of the manager and the image of leader in accordance to the integral approach. How is it different, and how is it special?

Dr. Michael Laitman: What is integral mean? Integral means that one is facing an integral society or one that is going to build an integral society. And in order to do that, he needs to first of all needs to know what that means. So this manager himself needs to go through the course, needs to absorb it properly, to go through it, and to experience it in order to understand or feel what it means to be part of the integral society, which turns you into an integral part of it as well. One that includes everybody else inside you. And this is not simple. Also you need to be integrated with each and every worker in helping him, feeling him, participating with him. Also cause each and every worker to want to be attached and tied to the leader. So the leader mustn’t only have the qualities of a leader but also the qualities of an educator, one who can build society. He needs to see the people who are under him as ones who are fit for this task, who are fit for it. And he has great work to do in building this new society so that the work relations that occurred before will be completely upgraded to new level, that each one will feel that he is in this or part of this integral mechanism, and because the leader is dependent on everybody and everybody is dependent on him in the salary, in the outcome of the work, but also in the atmosphere which influences the health and mood of the workers and what happens at home with their families and everything. The integral society pulls one into it each person’s entire world which also includes their families, and the kids, and their schools. Everything begins to belong to this new mechanism. Aside from that, the leader himself, if we go back to him, has to understand that he is now an educator and needs to have a new approach towards his workers: to everyone, to the administrators, to workers. He has to treat everyone equally. Because if he is the leader, underneath him everyone is equal in terms of the integral society he is now building. So even the smallest janitor, or person of the smallest rank, the administrators from the highest to the lowest, even the guard at the door, from the guard to the ones who are closest one to the leader are all equal. They have to receive an equal attitude from him, an equal amount of his attention. So on the one hand, it’s easy, on the other hand, it’s not so easy, because it’s the leader himself that needs to project this equal attitude towards everyone, and the rest depends on them. Because out of the nature of things, it is the people and the workers who seek this affinity more or less; some need more closeness and some less. Some need more security, attention. This is the real obstacle with workers, between people, between human beings, not just between the manager and his workers. Aside from that, he needs to cause the connection between all workers. This connection is caused by special events or jobs they participate in together. It could be picnics or weekends, conversations, talks, games (lectures, workshops) during the job, a radio for everyone at the office, like a general radio, or at the factory. Celebrating a birthday for each and every one, giving the same attention to each and every one, giving examples, and valuing examples of connections between everyone, and workshops. That’s clear. The leader needs to show every one that he knows them (and leads them as an educator).

Nitzah: Does the leader need to stick out, does he needs to be dominate?

Dr. Michael Laitman: The leader becomes dominant, because he is valued and is given credits for the security and dependencies that exist between them, because the manager, the leader becomes an essential leader.

Oren: I didn’t understand. The question was, “Does the leader need to be dominant?”

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes, but he doesn’t need to stick out through his strength or power, but by influencing them, by working with them, managing them. Out of that, they begin to treat him in this way, to value him as great, and to perceive him as a spiritual leader or a social let’s say. And then by that, he becomes a manager. Because if, until then, he was a manager of the job and he knew the job and that was his role, then he simply organized them and gave them orders. Now we are talking about an integral society, so these already are not commands. It is a general (common) understanding, an integration with a general desire from above and below. All those who are in the social structure, they all feel themselves to be equal, and they all feel themselves as one family in interconnection, interdependence, because this general atmosphere contributes a lot to positive and good work. Also regarding the internal state, there are less sick days and all kinds of problems. If the manager manages from above, then the educator educates from below. He is given credits. The role of the educator comes from the value he received, from the appreciation he receives from his public.

Nitzah: So the manager is a job that can be given, but to be a leader on needs to receive an attitude from their environment.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes.

Nitzah: So are there any special qualities that one needs to attain in order to become a leader? There is an approach that says that the main attribute of a leader is charisma.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes, but that is something that comes from above, and today I don’t think that it works so well. It used to be that people would think highly of their managers, because their manager would show himself so boastful, like some puffed up puppet. But today, a manger or leader is expected to instil some feeling of security, that he will keep his workers safe, he will fight for every each and one of them in the face of upper authorities, and that they are all under his wing. He has to show this protection, the unity, connection, and security, and then look after them through different things in life.

Nitzah: So what does the leader need to see as the most important thing in his role?

Dr. Michael Laitman: He needs to see that the society is round, is integral.

Nitzah: I will ask once again.

Dr. Michael Laitman: This is in opposition to a society that operates from top down, a hierarchical society.

Nitzah: Right. There is a hierarchical society, and there is a round society

Dr. Michael Laitman: A hierarchical society works from the top down, through commands that came from the top levels to the bottom ones. In the integral, round society, a leader needs to act as a father to each and every one.

Nitzah: So what are the most important things for this leader?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Both of these forms of relations. But people need to understand that no less than him giving commands on the job, does he have concern for each and every one to be well off, and he has the same caring attitude and warmth for each and every one. These are the two things he needs to maintain, this that we call the circles and the lines.

Oren: So according to integral approach inside this integral organization, if a leader develops this integral approach, than he will have two systems of relationships that live together within him. One of them is the regular hierarchical approach of giving commands, and there is a new layer that is added which is round, and both of them exist?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes both of them. Where is the point where is the point where this systems touch? Maybe that’s what you want to ask, because these two systems are opposed to each other.

(Oren: So I don’t understand. Does the manager give orders according to the integral approach or not?)

M:L: Of course, of course. All of the hierarchy remains, all the managerial hierarchy remains.

Oren: According to the integral society? It doesn’t contradict it?

M:L: No, you can’t continue without having those who are big and small, wise and slightly maybe less wise, and the managers, and the workers.

Oren: So there is nothing new here?

Dr. Michael Laitman: No, but what is new here is that we have the social aspect, where everyone belongs to the same mother. Different kids, different sizes, different ages, but they all belong to the same mother. Where do those two systems meet? We understand that they both work in our favour. The workers at the office or factory, all understand that it’s good to keep those two systems, so that we will have a good round and integral society on one hand, and on the other hand, we will have a normal managerial organization from the top down, so that there will be no confusion. Everybody knows what they need to do. This has to be. Then out of this integral society, they will happily join in that hierarchy and take the job that is right for them.

Oren: So you are saying that people will operate better inside this hierarchical structure if they have the round integral society where they feel children of one mother.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes, this is actually why the managers and the whole managing team of the company should be interested in adding the integral aspect, because it adds to the productivity of the organization, to the good participation of people in the hierarchy.

Oren: What is the connection between me feeling socially equal? Let’s say all three of us work in the same organization, on in different hierarchical levels, and now you are telling us to add the social level to our organization where everyone is equal in accordance to the integral approach. So let’s say we did that, and we really have the social relationship where we feel that we’re all equal, that it doesn’t matter that you are a great manager and I’m just a door man. If we add this layer.

Dr. Michael Laitman: We add the relationships between us. To the hierarchy

Oren: How will this influence my functioning in my place in the hierarchy?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Well, you will happily function and will do your job, and you will be willing to help others to do their job as well, because all in all, we are all workers, we are all enjoying the fruits of our labour, and we all want the connection. Now we don’t have the room for the same conflicts we had before. We will still need to talk about the salaries and how we can make sure there is a compensation for things. But finally, the atmosphere becomes a great addition to the salary. The atmosphere becomes a great fulfilment, a very important bonus for the workers, no less important than even the money they receive. Because one lives off the fulfilment and satisfaction he receives, and if he feels satisfied at his job through these good relationships, then it turns out that he enjoys himself. It doesn’t really matter if it’s because he got a few percentage increase in his salary, or that he’s happy about the fact that the relationships became better. Also today there are such measurements that measure satisfaction at work according to the mood, atmosphere, and happiness of the workers. So we’ve reached such a state where we can understand that this social contact and connection between the workers is a great bonus and addition to what goes in the bank.

Oren: How will that influence my function in the hierarchy, my functionality? .

Dr. Michael Laitman: Well, I’ll be motivated. I’ll be interested in the good relationships.

Oren: Yes, but how will these new relationships, this new layer, the round layer make me function better in the managerial hierarchy which, as you said, will remain the same?

Dr. Michael Laitman: What kind of relationships do we usually have at work?

Oren: Bad ones.

Dr. Michael Laitman: No not bad ones. They are hierarchical.

Oren: And you said that would not change.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes, but if I am educated towards a good relationship with others, disregarding the hierarchy. This will influence hierarchy.

Oren: That is why I’m asking you. Why is that? Because that’s where I have conflicts, because of the hierarchy. Right, it seems like these are two parallel worlds.

Dr. Michael Laitman: No. So the connection between them is that they are all interested in good relationships. And this good connection will also enter our work relationships in the hierarchy and soften them.

Oren: But we are not equal in the hierarchy.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Oh I’m sorry. I said it’s like different children in the family. You have the mother, the father the kids, the grandmother, the grandfather, the relatives. Each one has a place of his own. Each one has a role of his own in their own relationships with others. But it doesn’t interfere, on the contrary. The fact that everyone is related, doesn’t ruin the order, or each one has their place: one is a grandfather, one is a father, I’m the smallest, and I’m the youngest child. Each one has his own place in the hierarchy. Each one has their own place, and each one has their own approach, attitude, or the way others relate to him, and because we’re in one family, we compensate for each other. We make each other whole. We complete each other.

Nitzah: You said the leader should be like a father. Does he need to develop any such qualities of leadership in his workers?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Only through workshops in the integral education.

Nitzah: But that’s how you do it practically, but I’m asking because there is such an approach that says each worker needs to be a kind of leader on his own. Is that a correct approach?

Dr. Michael Laitman: What does that mean that every worker needs to be a leader? We want him to be more creative, to initiate more, to maybe save more. Sure that will happen through the integral education. Naturally you will add more to his work.

Nitzah: There is an approach that I’d like you to relate to, something that exists already, and it goes like this, “In order to be a leader, you need to have four components.” The first one is personal attention. You need to give the right attention, equal attention, like you said, to your workers, an empathy, support, and attention to each and every one of your workers. The second component is to give intellectual challenges to your workers, and the leader himself needs to have creative ways of solving problems that he and the organization faces. The third component is that he needs to motivate the workers, to give them inspiration, to give them the feeling of trust and empathy. To create such a process where he gets people to want to move and to do. And the forth component is being a model, to be a personal example, and source of pride, showing that he is a leader, so they think that they would want to be like him. It’s all written very nicely, but does it work?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Psychologically it’s nice. But in actuality, none of this will work. At least throughout the years, because once the ego grows all the time, all the workers’ egos will grow. And they will just see this leader as an inflated puppet that once use them, and exploit them, and was manipulating them with a nice smile and nothing else, just like some commercial that you see anywhere. Therefore, they will disrespect the leader even more, and will be against him even more, will put sticks in his wheels. However, only if we bring them to the feeling of the integral society in which the leader does not have to behave only in accordance to these four components, but he needs to reach a state where the managers have to go through a great interchange. The greater the person is in the hierarchy, the greater he needs to be in the circles, in the intergrality, in the integral connection, because his influence is greater. It’s no wonder.

Oren: If he goes through this process of change in integral awareness, is higher up in the hierarchy, and also of a stronger perception of this circle structure, does he live up to this four components?

Dr. Michael Laitman: He would live these components out but without knowing them, naturally out of him feeling that this is the way he needs to relate to people. Why does he need all these parameters just to make a check next to them that he’s done them? What about the emotion and the intention? This doesn’t come from the mind, it comes from inside. It’s just like someone automatically sends a greeting card to someone’s birthday, and everyone receives the same one. That doesn’t count.

Oren: So you are saying that the leader doesn’t need knowledge. He will feel out of that new emotion that builds up within him, this new feeling, he will understand and feel how to relate to his workers.

Dr. Michael Laitman: That’s right. I remember when I was in the army and even in the reserve duty, there was this one kibutznik with me. He was a good guy. I had a relation connection with him. And he said that in a week, he would receive a gift from the kibutz, and truly he received such a gift. And he knew in advance what was inside. It was so automatic. I already felt that there is something rotten about it.

Nitzah: Right it doesn’t give you any excitement.

Dr. Michael Laitman: No. It becomes an automatic procedure.

Oren: So you are saying it won’t help to give the leader any knowledge to treat your workers personally, to inspire them, to be for them an example. He will feel all these things from inside when he goes through this integral education.

Dr. Michael Laitman: If he doesn’t create his integral relationship with them, all of his speciality, and knowledge, and all his professional expertise, they will not accept and they will not appreciate it. They will see him as the one who exploits them.

Oren: And if yes?

Dr. Michael Laitman: If he develops this integral approach and see himself as an equal with them or as a father that cares for them, then they will accept him that way. So, on the one hand, he’s my father, and on the other, he is equal with me and cares for me. These are the kind of relationships we have in the family, naturally. This is why it exists this way in animals and with everyone, where the line and circles are together. And just because I’m higher up then them, it doesn’t mean I’m not equal with them. On the contrary, it means that I need to care for them even more. Being a manger is responsibility; it’s a role. Let’s put it this way, a true manager is the one that is willing work and to receive the same salary as his workers, and to manage them, because he knows and cares more than anyone else for them. That is a true manager. Like in the family, do the mom and dad receive more than the kids? No. The kids receive more. Integrally, this is the way it needs to be. You can always can take examples from the family. We are heading there wether we want to or not. Society will go to this direction, otherwise we won’t be able to manage it.

Oren: Why?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Because we are gradually transferring from the linear form to the integral form.

Oren: And how is this going to express itself in the hierarchy in the organization?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Well the organization will feel that the workers have no motivation for the job. They will disrespect everything. You will need to have twice as many people to perform the same work which can be done by few people.

Nitzah: That’s true. We already see it today. Organizational consultants are asked to do processes in the organization to would motivate the workers, because there is no motivation for people to do anything.

Oren: If we go back to the manager for a minute. If they will have a good manager according to the integral approach, will they have motivation?

Dr. Michael Laitman: No. They themselves will feel motivation, between themselves.

Nitzah: What will give them this motivation?

Oren: Ok, a moment before that, you gave a very interesting example. You said that organizations today do not have motivated workers, and you said that it will get worse and worse until you will feel the organization is paralysed, because you can’t move your workers; it’s stuck. This will get worse and worse, and now you are telling me that the only way out this is if they feel that the manager is just like a caring father.

Dr. Michael Laitman: And also the relationships with him are this way that they are under his umbrella in everything.

Oren: This will motivate them?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Offcourse, because first of all they will feel that they are in a good place of work. It’s warm, it’s family, also my own private family belongs to it, my kids are tied to it, they organize all kinds of after school activities. But most importantly, they need to feel they belong to this one thing, to this one society. But it happens through education. You can’t turn them into friendly workers. This happens through education, through workshops, through explaining and advancing towards it. It’s work that you have to do to help people, to enter this one sphere, this round environment. We have to organize such an environment around them. Let’s say you take all the workers of the factory, and put them in such an atmosphere that will constantly give them more and more advanced values, forms of connection that are advanced. Just like we talked about. Just like a person who depends on society, then this society depends on a higher society, or greater society. We need to organize this. How do we organize this? Through workshops. The workshop is the greater environment that activates, or works on, or operates on my workers, and in this way, I will have them go through this entire process, and then I give them new values.

35:07

Oren: Can I ask?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes

Oren: If you, worked under a certain manager, and suddenly the organization went through a process of learning of this integral approach and advanced emotionally, and now as a worker you suddenly begin to feel that your manager is beginning to care for you just like a father. Does that motivate you to work better?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Otherwise, I’ll lose my job, I’ll lose the approach towards me, the workers will look at me like I don’t belong…

Oren: At home I have four kids, I treat them as a father, I see them as a father. I don’t always see that I motivate them, I don’t always see that I succeed with my love to motivate them, to work, to move, to make them do stuff. Sometimes I see that it gives them a feeling of maybe even laziness; as in, we have a dad, he should do what he wants us to do, let him do it. So I want to understand why such a warm, “father like” attitude from a manager makes a worker work better.

Dr. Michael Laitman: You are only taking half of the process. Where are the workshops that you do with your kids? Where is the work that you do with them? Treating them like a father, it’s something that they feel that you owe them. You gave birth to them, so you need to care of them.

Oren: So you are saying that at home it’s not appreciated, and in the organization it will be appreciated because it’s supernatural?

Dr. Michael Laitman: It won’t be artificial, it will be from your heart, because suddenly in all kinds of places, they will see that you care for them. If something happens to someone than you care, just like in the family, and also you educate them in workshops. And you educate them not only in workshops, but in a picnics. In all kinds of activities with kids, you show them an example of your care. You have to work with the workers. You don’t just show them your attitude, you’ve got to get them go through a process.

Oren: Let’s clear. Let’s talk about the qualities of the leader that we talked about before. Every person, no matter his personal attributes, if he develops this integral awareness and begins to treat others in a more equal way, will he be able to be a manager according to this approach; a manager that treats his workers as a father?

Dr. Michael Laitman: If he can do it professionally and knows how to organize the society integrally, he needs two things, to work correctly in the hierarchy and to work correctly in a circle.

Oren: So he can be a manager?

Dr. Michael Laitman: According to the height that he reaches in his profession and also in his organizational ability.

Oren: OK let’s take two people who are hierarchically the same. One is charismatic and the other is not charismatic. Will that influence their ability to manage or not? Will they both be able to advance the organization or the workers the same?

Dr. Michael Laitman: No, of course it’s important, but the question is what do you mean by charismatic? Where is the charisma? Wanting to stick out, wanting to manage others, wanting to prove himself? Or is he correctly balanced in mind and heart, in emotion and mind, between the hierarchy and the circles, and therefor he knows how do you create a society? You know what happens when you get a circle and line, you get a sphere, a ball, an orb. If someone has this inner heart and mind that allows him to build this orb or ball out of his work relationships, in personal life and in his work relationship, this is a manager. That is your manager!

Oren: That’s charisma according to your definition?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes. This is what he needs to have an impulse for. That’s the kind of people that we need.

Oren: So this is the charisma according to your definition of the integral approach? This is something that will draw people, pull people, motivate them, and bring them to a better place, to a more positive place?

Of course, because he will know how to manage everything. Such a person will know the balance between how much to treat people in accordance to the circles and how to treat them in accordance to the hierarchy, to the straight line. He will see himself as a strong powerful leader when the people need that. Together with that, he will be warm and a friend with everyone. He’ll know how to combine these things.

Oren: How does he measure these things?

Dr. Michael Laitman: This is sensitivity that he acquires. It’s a kind of participation or even love, without which you cannot do it. If a person doesn’t change or improve himself, if he doesn’t truly integrate himself with his public, at least his public, he won’t know how to manage them correctly. He has to undergo change, internal change.

Oren: And then he will feel when he needs to be as a line and when he needs to be a circle?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Ye, in a simple way just like a mother feels what does her child needs.

Oren: What do you mean what she can compensate or help him with.

Dr. Michael Laitman: She needs to see how she can help her child. Now I need to give him this or that. To be on constant care. On the one hand, she pressures him, she pushes him to do all the things that he needs to do at home, and on the other hand, and she cares for him. Have you have eaten? What you are doing. How does she know? Ask her!

Oren: Will the manager know?

Dr. Michael Laitman: If he is like this mother, he will know

Oren: What do you mean like the mother?

Dr. Michael Laitman: He needs to acquire such a feeling.

Oren: Towards the workers?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes, otherwise what will he do? This is called the right kind of charisma. The mom has a charisma, because she constantly carrying for her children. And you want that manager to have the same thing. To treat them in terms of their homework, and health, and everything else comes out of love. This is what they need to feel. But not like your kids, they also receive workshops and education. It needs to be mutual.

Nitzah: I think that at least for me, you organized things very well now. I understood that the organization operates in a hierarchal way, and this represents the mind, the logical side, no feelings, it’s very, very straight and logical. And now you are saying that the circle aspect brings the feeling, the heart, and the emotion. And today, the organization that operates only according to the mind, cannot continue if it does not combine the other half, the emotion, and be able to balance these two parts, knowing when to work from the mind and when to work from the heart. This is a special ability that the organization or the leader needs to have. Just like Oren he needs to know…

Dr. Michael Laitman: This is why not each and every one can be a leader.

Oren: Then only who?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Only those who have this “inner sensitivity,” as I said.

Oren: What is this sensitivity?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Sensitivity means that he can combine mind and heart in such a way that wherever he feels he needs to add the mind he adds it, wherever he sees he needs to add an emotion, he calculates he needs to add emotion, and he adds it.

Oren: According to what?

Dr. Michael Laitman: According to the integration within him between heart and mind, between circles and lines. And in accordance to how much he absorbs from the environment within which he lives. The manager himself, he is not God, he is not some upper force. He also needs an environment that will constantly hold him up, educate him, and improve him.

Oren: How will this be expressed in the life of organization?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Everyone needs to go through these workshops and education; the worker and the manager himself, just like everybody else needs to be in this integral education.

Oren: So if he, as an individual, participates in these workshops, this will be the environment that will develop that sensitivity in him?

Dr. Michael Laitman: Yes. He will have to break himself open even more than any of the workers, because if we are talking about the integral education, than everybody is equal. Everybody is in the same hall let’s say, conference hall, where everybody goes through the same workshop, and everybody participates including the manager. He has to make himself equal to all the people who come to this circles. Let’s say I’m the one who organizes these circles. I come there from the outside, and then he is not even a function, not a manger in my eyes. He will be a manger if he participates in these circles equally, just like everyone else. Then he will be the manger. You understand what a serious job there is here; otherwise, businesses will not proceed and advance.

First of all, they will degrade it. The blossoming, the flourishing can only happen through the mutual participation of everyone. It’s possible that for now, just like you see in the army, you have people who are in charge of the profession and those who are in charge for the spirit, the atmosphere. So there can be two managers. Just like in Russia. You had the commissioners who would inflate you with the attitude towards the country, and the homeland, and you had professionals who didn’t care about that. They needed you to know how to shoot well, and how to do your job properly, technically, etc., etc. But actually, if we talk about the integral society, this has to exist together, in each and every one, because it’s all also to influence his commands. Because in his profession, he will also see the new steps he needs to take in regards to a system. He will see that the system needs to be a little different. He will also need to make the demands special, and the commands special, according to the circles. The hierarchy or the straight lines are influenced by the circles, and the circles are influenced by the hierarchy, until they all come together to a circle, in to this orb.

What’s in this orb? The orb or the ball is a whole form. There is no up and down, there is no right or left, back or front. But in each and every place, whoever is inside this ball is important just like everyone else. So much so that the individual and the general are the same, equal. I cannot take out of this mechanism, of this office, or a factory any individual, because everything will fall apart like a tower of cards. We are so interdependent in completing each other that we can’t take anyone out, but that’s an ideal form.

Nitzah: I have a question about that, because of when a leader gradually begins to receive this circular form. Let’s say he is now demanded to recruit new workers or even to fire workers. What kind of characteristic will he seek in the people he wants to recruit? Will he look for this new approach in them?

Dr. Michael Laitman: I think you can recruit new workers only if they go through our special course, and we see that it depends on how much they are able to integrate in this new society. I’m not just look for a professional, for an economist, or an engineer and to see if he is studied in Harvard and that enough. I have to accept him if he is suited for the environment; otherwise he will arrive, and it’s not that he won’t work well, but he will have a bad influence on my entire system. I need to prepare him so that he’ll have a soft landing, a smooth entrance into this integral society, into this body of workers. I have to put them through workshops. Let’s say I have 30 or 40, I don’t know how many people who are outside the factory that are all waiting for me to give them a place of work. So I tell them, you all have to go through, let’s say, two weeks. Let’s make it as short of possible. But still we have to put them through a course in order for them to start working.

Oren: How will you know who you chose for this course? Let’s say, in order to manager you have one job and you have ten different people who want the job. Who will you chose?

Dr. Michael Laitman: First of all I’ll choose them according to profession, after the profession...

Oren: Ok. So you are not like yesterday. Now the question is… So the higher the job, the more candidates you’ll have, and the more energy you’ll need to invest in choosing the person. Now let’s say, I have a number of candidates who’ve gone through this process, and they are saying, listen we are soon going to finish this process, and I’ve got 10 candidates and one job. What kind of characteristics do I need to look for in order to choose a good fit for my organization as an organization that already began this integral process? So now you have said that all of them need to go through this process of preparation, but maybe I won’t take all of them, because I only have only one job.

Dr. Michael Laitman: No. They all go through the integral process. I don’t understand you, all ten of them go through this preparation process. And then I see, how much they are able to annul themselves, to agree with others, to receive somebody else’s opinion, to participate. I test them now, not in their profession, not in the linear hierarchical way; but I’m now testing the people there in accordance to their ability to connect integrally to others. And in accordance to that, I hear what they are asking, how they talk between themselves, how much they’re able to communicate with each other with the right connection with each other: how much one annuls himself, to prove themselves also whenever he is right, how much he can participate emotionally with others when they talk, and not just gracefully or externally. I give them such questions, also about crisis, special things that happen in the family, and at the job. All kinds of things that don’t belong to the profession itself, sometimes regarding the profession itself in order to confuse them a bit, and then I let them cook in that, and actually I give them all kinds of events that could happen in the job itself at the organization, and ask them how they would solve it. But I organize it in such a way, because this person doesn’t know what an integral society is. But I give them talks as well, and I see how much they absorb it, how much they are prepared for it: is the person soft enough, sensitive enough, and is it enough for him to be this way, or is he only operating through cunningness alone. This is also necessary. All the human qualities and trades are necessary, but a person needs to know how that he is coming to such a workspace where he needs to be integrated with everyone else. Let’s say you are a father of all these 50 people that are now going to work with you. Let’s say there are 50 people in the office. Now, as a father, how do you treat them? What do you recommend for them?

Oren: You would ask them this?

Dr. Michael Laitman: You are asking me how I check. This is how I check them more or less. I can tell them, after these 5 meetings, this preparation, we need five more meetings.

Oren: If you have not reached your decision, or you see they’re not prepared yet.

Dr. Michael Laitman: Right. Yes. And we do this, not while they are working somewhere else, but during their free time. They come in the evening, they study a little bit with us, and go through the workshop, and this could be for a number of months, but they know that they will be accepted if they go through this.

Oren: At the end of this process, let’s say you’ve put ten people through this process, but you only have one open job. You feel that three of them are good. Now with a hand on your heart, you are responsible for this process. How do you choose this one person out of the three? What do you ask yourself; one question that you ask, and you know that you made the right choice as much as you can of course.

Dr. Michael Laitman: We need to create a test here, where the most important thing here is the right integration between mind and heart, between the line, the hierarchy and the circles, the intergrality, between the relationships at work as a manager, and the attitude as a father in a family. So that the person that’s bellow me in the hierarchy will also feel that I’m bellow them as the father. Let’s say I’m a meter higher above them organizationally speaking. I need to give them a true feeling that I’m a meter bellow them or less than them, as one who cares for them, and that they are more important to me. We need to give all kind of tests here and talks between them, between these ten people so that we can discern this. But overall, I’m telling you, if you take an example from nature, nature here is the family, you will not go wrong.

Oren: Our time for this talk is up. It was fascinating. Thank you very, very much Michael Laitman. Thank you Nitza, and to you as well for being with us. Until next time, all the best, and good bye!