Talks with Rav Laitman
A New life
Talks on the family
Episode #208
July 2, 2013
Oren: Hello, thank you for being with us in the new educational series with Dr. Michael Laitman. Hello, Dr. Laitman.
Dr. Laitman: Hello.
Oren: Hello, Nitzah Mazos.
Nitzah: Hello.
Oren: We are inviting you to come on a journey with us, to take a journey with Dr. Laitman each time in the areas of our life. We will see how, how we develop relationships with people around us and how to create newer and better relationships that infuse us with happiness, warmth, concern, and feeling. That life with new connections is what we call the new life.
Today we want to focus in what is happening in the home, in the family. And we are coming from the place where if we learn as parents and as mature people, and our children also learn as well at the different stages from small children to teenagers, etc., it does not matter what ages. Even grandparents can learn and develop a new quality in how we connect with others, which will allow us to profit from that in all areas of our life. And these and other connections, even outside the family unit, will rise up a level.
When we all enhance our ability to connect with others, we suddenly discover and create for ourselves, a better life, and a new life. That is what we want to do. Be with us. I even suggest taking notes, so that you will be able to exercise these things at home and you will be able to see if it works or not. You can check for yourself.
Our focus today is on one of the subjects that bother parents the most. A family unit is the area of boundaries. How should we react to this whole issue of setting boundaries? Nitzah, get us into it.
Nitzah: So, part of the appointed role as parents is setting boundaries for children. The most basic thing in creating boundaries is telling the child when he needs to go to sleep, when he needs to eat. All those things. Of course it is according to their age, but of course the entire system of laws and the limitation that we give our kids, is some set. We call it a set that is a loving place. It comes from the place of love that sets limits on our children so that it will allow them to develop and grow in the best possible way, maintains their health, etc. But this subject of boundaries and setting them properly is really one of the subjects that confuses parents. Many times there is a feeling that if I limit my kid maybe I do not love him enough or I am too tough. And here the difficulty begins. First question is, in your approach, how do you see setting boundaries and how is it done properly?
Dr. Laitman: It is a problem, a big problem, because we need the child to receive his boundaries, but we agree with them and it is from the place of inner agreement. It does not come to him because it is what he is used to and he sees it is correct, but rather it is some kind of condition that could be formed, a condition that he has to carry out. He has to carry it out in a constant manner, always pressuring himself against his will. Because in each instance, we want to find the attitude, an approach that what the child does at the end of the day, he does not do out of being pressures, or out of fear, but rather out of his desire, an agreement on his side.
So how can we bring him to a decision like this One where he himself is taking upon himself the same boundary that we want to preach to him in such a manner that we will not even speak about, but he himself would suddenly carry it out. That is the ideal situation. These things can come, not through pressure from the parents’ side, but only through the environment as an example. There is nothing else except that.
In the army they force people, or at home they force people, or an example is received from the environment. That obligates a person and he is incapable of standing up to it. He cannot. If the environment behaves in such a manner and demands in such a manner, than the child or the adult, it does not matter whom, follows the example of the environment. Now the question is where we get such an environment in which a person will want to carry out certain actions and to which a child will listen.
My answer was very simple. I put my son into karate, and he was quite big at the age of 11 or 12. He was in an environment that really supported that. I took him to karate lessons, but the coach told him that at nine o’clock in the evening he had to go to sleep, something he might fight against. And then it was for him the Holy Grail. He wanted to succeed and he carried it out. It is better if it does not come from the parent. I could be a parent, but ideally an authority, a positive authority in his life and vital for that child. That is very important. Then he will see something in those achievements. These kinds of things should be said by someone he thinks is bigger than him, someone whom he respects. And maybe he will agree to it within himself and then he will carry it out without any struggle.
Nitzah: Then let us say it is a situation where parents expect another group to set the boundaries. How do I as a parent set the child’s boundaries?
Dr. Laitman: Why does a parent have to do it himself?
Nitzah: Because of his pride?
Dr. Laitman: No.
Nitzah: Out of the desire to look after a child, to maintain him.
Dr. Laitman: So there is a need to find not frameworks, but outside sources of influence on the kid that will be great in his eyes and then he will be able to maintain what they say to him.
Nitzah: So, let us say those frameworks can really be in sports frameworks. I see kids play football, etc. I saw the coach gives them direction and they take it as holy. But I am looking at the kids that do not enter into these frameworks, such as two, and three-year-olds. Who sets his limits? He needs to know when he is eating, when he is sleeping, when he is rested, when I am not letting him watch TV.
Dr. Laitman: He needs to take an example from his big brother, from his neighbor. He is jealous of him. He needs to see that he is big and strong, important in some manner. It should be a child who is slightly bigger than him.
They always look at them like they something special, whereas us parents are like furniture to him. And those kids that are slightly bigger can give them the example.
Nitzah: I know we need to find such a thing, but this subject is so wide.
Dr. Laitman: There has to be an environment. That is what I want to say. And it is not just the matter of what is allowed and what is not allowed. It touches everything. We need to organize such an environment, some activity, it does not matter what. But it has to be only from the environment, otherwise it will not hold.
Nitzah: Why will it not hold?
Dr. Laitman: Because a person is nurtured and influenced by his environment. He looks at the people that are like him or slightly older than he is, and he takes an example from them. He cannot take an example from people who are five years older than him. For him, that is a completely different world. If they are younger than him, he will disregard them, which is natural. It is the natural power or otherwise, we would not grow up. You can say that you are jealous of someone who is 2-3 year older than you, but beyond that, you cannot grasp. So, as a parent, I need to bring my child to the right impression from those kids, but those kids have to be in the right society and they need to be organized. If I want to educate my child, I do not have any choice and I want to check where they are and what framework they are in. I have to look after that framework.
Nitzha: And in my house, I cannot organize anything?
Dr. Laitman: Do what you want. Invite kids over, give them pizza or something, but the main thing is for them to organize that there will be someone and something there. There should be some instruction inside to help make the correct framework for them. Some will enjoy it, and of course they will all go away if you fail. But you do not have any chance of educating him otherwise.
His mother is a very weird element. He will not listen to her. He will not want to hear her. Maybe he will carry it out, because he has no other choice. He will resist it will all his strength.
Nitzah: Even if we start a process of studying in a circle, in the family.
Dr. Laitman: In the family, it is possible. You have to create a framework. Let us say things that are more difficult, such as are going to bed on time, etc. The strongest factor is his friends.
Nitzah: But the friends can influence him,
Dr. Laitman: Let him play from morning until evening and let him be on the Internet. Again, I am not just saying any friends that you take from the outside. But I am talking about those that we have started working with and organizing. Otherwise, that is not called an environment. The environment I am talking about is a good environment.
Nitzah: So I understand that there are two processes. There is a social process and there is a process inside my family.
Dr. Laitman: If it is possible to do within the family, fine. But there are things that are more successful when carried out in the environment of friends.
Nitzah: So you are actually saying that for the whole issues of setting boundaries, it is easier for the environment to set the boundaries rather than doing it in the home. It is more powerful.
Dr. Laitman: That is not very simple, but that is how we are built. A person always develops within a greater society, in an external society and he is pulled into it. That is our nature.
Nitzah: That really explains the situation right now, because it appears that our society is breaking... It is not the kids breaking out of... they are in some kind of framework, but when they start getting older…
Dr. Laitman: The teens, the teens have gone through every boundary, every framework. That is because we are not looking after a good environment for them.
Nitzah: I have a question.
Dr. Laitman: And also we do not want to recognize that there is evil inclination that has to be treated and that the environment has to answer each of these problems. This war is with the evil inclination is not to destroy it, but to transform it to good. It is really art. Education is everything. If we know how to educate our kids, than we will change the world with that and if not in our generation, than in the next generation. Education is essential, and that is why integral education is the springboard for changing everything. Either we will change things, or we will descend into God knows what. Therefore, here we need to pay attention. The shaping around each person has to surely have a good environment.
Oren: Why do we have to set boundaries for kids? Can they not grow up without boundaries? I am just asking you a question. So, now I want to step back and ask you about the issue of setting boundaries. It is as if part of parents’ functionality of being a good parent is setting the right boundaries so the child will grow like a flower in a…
Dr. Laitman: The child will grow as a monkey among monkeys.
Oren: Like crossing the street alone. Is he allowed to? He’s not allowed, he’s not allowed. Somebody else has to set the boundaries. The father has to explain him that crossing the street alone is not allowed because you can get run over. That is just an example of setting a boundary. In other words, life apparently gave me a role without asking me, in which I as a parent am obligated to set boundaries for my child that will allow his correct and healthy development. Correct?
Dr. Laitman: Yes.
Oren: So that is a fact. Now I want to ask why does a child, a little person who is developing into a human, why he is going to grow like a flower? That is what nature gave me on my hand as a parent. So this role of setting boundaries, is it necessary for a child to grow up properly?
Dr. Laitman: Yes, but the question is what is setting boundaries? I am standing on the street and trying to cross it. I am not looking if the light is red or orange. I am looking if there are cars or no cars. If there are no cars I am running. As a parent and an adult, what can stop me from crossing only on green? If I have a child with me. If I am walking with a child, I try to set an example. And if you see there are no cars and everything is clear and you cross.
In other words, we are always standing with our evil inclination, with our urges. Only external forces can stop us, give us an example, maintain us, and allow us to maintain the laws of society. What society respects, I need to respect. It is only if there is an opinion around me. If there is no opinion around me, than I will escape. I will do whatever I feel like doing. Yes, that is it.
Therefore I am saying that we cannot check inside that a child will do this or that. He has evil inclination and he will not want to. He will want to kick all the borders, all the framework. And we will also. We need to reach a situation that what I do, no matter what I do, I always feel that I am inside society and that I have to carry out the laws of society. And that if I carry them out, I feel good and if I do not carry them out, I feel bad, because I am a bad element. For society and myself are one and the same thing and that it is becoming this for me. Only on this condition, will I never cross the street except on the green light.
Is it possible to discern? From what you have explained, I understood that there is discernment between setting physical boundaries and setting social boundaries?
Dr. Laitman: It is the same thing.
Nitzah: Really?
Dr. Laitman: Yes. What difference does it make?
Nitzah: Physical means like crossing the street.
Dr. Laitman: But if you are going to sleep at nine o’clock is it physical or a social? I go to sleep at that time because everyone brainwashed me? That is how it is. If it will be according to physics, what is obligating me? I want to watch a nice movie; I want to talk on the phone with my friends.
Oren: So, I should charge you if you are my child.
Dr. Laitman: I… who are Daddy? I do not even see you.
Oren: If you do not see me, then apparently, since you were young, I have not set boundaries for you.
Dr. Laitman: Now I am growing up I am seeing more and more and starting more and more not to pay attention to you. That is the nature; that we disconnect from our parents until they completely leave the home. “You can beat me up, I will go to the police.” You know how it is.
Oren: Hang on, you confusing me that you brought…
Dr. Laitman: I am talking about a little kid. I am not talking about teens.
Oren: He does not want to go to sleep, he wants to continue talking. If I do not tell him to stop, he will never stop, right?
Dr. Laitman: I did otherwise. I took my grandchild. He wanted to sleep at a friend’s house.
Oren: That is a good example. Every day my child wants to sleep at a friend’s house. I said stop. This day you can, this day you cannot. There are days when it is vacation. When it is not vacation, you cannot sleep at a friend’s house. Friday night you cannot sleep at a friend’s house. That is what I said in my house and I maintained that. And he hates his father.
Dr. Laitman: He can hate him, but without boundaries. But why should it come from you and not in the correct and good manner?
Oren: So what is the correct and good manner? That is what we are trying to learn.
Dr. Laitman: I brought him to a friend and his friend goes to sleep early. And they both went to sleep early. He walked around a bit, hung around a bit and then he went to sleep. Then a little bit more and a little bit more and he went to sleep easily.
Oren: Great. A great example how to set a boundary of when to go to sleep. What about the number of times he will sleep at a friend’s house?
Dr. Laitman: There you can do it. I talked with the mother there. I talked with the father. That is what we had in our house as well. And they said to them, “No, today we cannot, we are going somewhere. Maybe in a couple of days. And twice a week you can.”
Oren: Great. That is called that you set boundaries and you gave proof. You said: “You cannot.”
Dr. Laitman: No, I did not do it. The other parents did it.
Oren: So for that child, someone big set a boundary and said you cannot do it tomorrow
Dr. Laitman: His father was great, he was ready to do everything as a father.
Oren: What father?
Dr. Laitman: I, as a father. “You want to sleep with him great; (meaning the father was permitting the boy to sleep at his friends’ house) you want to do what you want, great. I am your friend. I am just like you. I go along with you, whatever you want.”
And there we got our condition from outside (external condition) that is not allowing you to sleep there. And today truly, he does not go to sleep with him at all. Sometimes once in a while.
With kids it has to balance out. At the beginning there is big excitement, it becomes a habit, and then it gets less important, etc., according to his spirit. Meaning the aspiration is not to be the bad cop.
Oren: You said I am your friend, I am nice, I am generous. As far as I am concerned, 300 days a week, you can go sleep there. Let’s see if they agree, and the mother says, “Listen, you were here yesterday. So, maybe next week, we will agree.”
Dr. Laitman: Yes.
Oren: So, what am I learning from this little lesson? That in order to maintain the right connection with my child, I always have to aspire to appear in his eyes as a friend and that I would be very happy to give you everything without any boundary, anything in life. And then he feels that I am with him? But what, life is forcing us and therefore, setting boundaries.
Dr. Laitman: If there is no choice, only if there is no choice, you suggest to him not to do it. Not to do this or that, and then he will hear you. Because he will know that usually you are his friend.
Nitzah: So in other words, first you acquired his trust.
Dr. Laitman: But only in things that are vital, that I do not identify how I can turn it around. And in a very sneaky way, I need to turn it around. Suddenly it breaks and something is not working, someone does not agree. I myself am not the bad element for him.
Nitzah: Why is this approach important? I am trying to understand the rationale. Why is it so significant to not express to the child?
Dr. Laitman: When kids say their mom is bad, it means they do not love their mother. This is the ego, a small piece of the ego. He understands only that the parents always have to be a slave for him. What does he give birth to him for, to use him? Kids understand that parents are there for them. That is how it is according to the upper root, and that is how it is in our life as well. If I ask my parents for something they have to supply it to me.
Oren: So you are getting out of it. You said kids that say the mommy is mean, they do not love her. And now I am trying to get out of something. I am trying to be a smart parent.
Dr. Laitman: That is it. A smart parent sees that you always say yes, but he arranges for the kids such situations that they learn how to behave properly.
Nitzhah: Now you brought the role. He has to create external roles through which kids will learn their boundaries.
Dr. Laitman: Just like in a boundary.
Nitzah: It is a lot of work, actually, because the parent has to think how they... like for example in this situation…
Dr. Laitman: That is the wisdom of being a parent. It is not easy. Let us say the mother and father, they are the upper ones, they know their child’s nature and they are making a special setup to turn things around and they want to get him through such places that they will be able to correct themselves. They take him to ZON.
And therefore we have to take form that an example and we need to do it in a sneaky way. On one hand, we need to get energy from them, next to the dining room... Daddy does not allow that, so let us go to Mommy and Mommy allows it. Mommy and Daddy have to constantly be together, They manage and turn kids around. There really is no pressure like that that says that two parents have to agree to the same...
Nitzah: It is really planning these situations, the same situations.
Dr. Laitman: Otherwise it does not work. That is called Integral Education. There is no choice. We have to learn the things that in our world, there are no examples for. And this is how he gradually reaches an upper wisdom.
Nitzah: Are there certain things that I as a parent need to know? How to organize? You threw a bomb into it as far as I am concerned. You said that we need to arrange all sorts of situations so that the kids will learn.
Dr. Laitman: If you love your children, it obligates you to be connected to your neighbors, to teachers. And it obligates you to be in friendship with your friends and be in connection and be in union with them. And then you will know for sure how to treat your kids. Otherwise, it will not work. There has to be a round society.
Nitzah: A lot of times when we set boundaries there is the subject of punishments.
Dr. Laitman: Punishment can only be if the society puts him down. Being ashamed is the only attribute that we have, our basic attribute that if we play with it, will be able to correct men.
Nitzah: Explain this to me. How do we play with shame in such a way?
Dr. Laitman: Once upon a time we did not have to play with shame, because a person was always in a group of people or in a village where everyone decided everything and then automatically, he was always working with his shame and how he would appear in others’ eyes, according to what is accepted.
Today we have a problem. Our boundaries, our norms, are beneath every possible standard, etc. But still, we have the shame, each and every one of us. And each an every one of us still wants is obligated to from inside of his nature to appear great in the eyes of the society - smarter, stronger, more stubborn, more criminal, more of a bully. It does not matter with what. The main thing is more. If not the entire society, then his…
To make a long story short, he has to stand out. This is how he maintains his “I.” Therefore, we need to identify these things in each and every person. And society has to actually play with each and every one of us, that if not, a person will feel shame. And then a person will do everything to prevent it. That will maintain him for sure. It is a nature in such a manner that it will not take up any of his strength. If I know that if I behave like this and like this, I will be so ashamed and I will not be able to do it ever again.
The shame is what maintains us at every level that the society determines. Below that is shame and above that is respect. Respect we can give up a little bit. It depends on the health and our power and how much we invest, etc, but shame - it is a big problem. Therefore, with kids, we need to play. And there is a lot to learn here.
Oren: Can you give me an example in the family of using shame as a tool?
Dr. Laitman: Again, if we do workshops, and we need to do them very gently, otherwise we can break the kid.
Oren: It sounds like a very cruel tool inside the house. I am afraid I will damage the child.
Dr. Laitman: If you are knowledgeable, then you will know what do,
Oren: But, you talked about setting boundaries.
Dr. Laitman: Yes. So, here the shame...
Oren: But, now you have given me nuclear energy. You have given me a means of creating boundaries. I do not know what to do with it. It sounds so dangerous. If I give him too much shame, I am burning him I think.
Dr. Laitman: That is correct. Especially if it is a child, that is a million times more. If you break his confidence…
Oren: That is why I am asking how to this tool. I understand the principle, but how do I use it? How do I use it correctly? How do I use it gently?
Dr. Laitman: I cannot explain it on a in a manner that will be truly ready for use. You have to learn it. We will open it up. Maybe we will open up a discussion about shame itself. We will talk about it. Even if you want the next discussion.
Oren: So how shall we do it correctly? Let us go back to the shame. We were talking about punishment. We were talking about setting boundaries and punishment. First of all you said it is not acceptable. There is no such thing as punishment. You are saying it is not acceptable.
Dr. Laitman: The shame is the punishment, either respect or shame. We want to raise a person. A person is made up of these two inclinations. For shame, it means escaping from shame and reaching respect.
Nitzah: Can I give an example from my life? As a child I remember…
Dr. Laitman: Girls, it is really a problem.
Nitzah: My parents always gave me lots of space, but they always said to me, “We really, really depend on you. And it is clear to us that you will come back on time.” So, as a young girl, I would go out and I would know that there was no such a situation where I would be late because there was no way that I wanted to disappoint them. I always wanted to continue to acquire their respect for me. Is this an example of the correct use?
Dr. Laitman: It could be, but it will depend on the previous education and the relationships. It is not just an example in itself if I say to a child that I rely on you. It has to be something in the whole thing of relationships.
Nitzah: You mean I took the place of shame and I tried to take it to a place of not disappointing. It was like smaller. Shame is very, very big. So, what do we with the punishment?
Dr. Laitman: There is no punishment. The punishment is that he will feel that he can get into shame and in the eyes of the environment and in the home, it is a big problem. You can also shape it that he will be ashamed in the eyes of the environment and the family, but also towards the broader environment, of course.
Look what is happening in classes, and in schools. Look at the wars, look at the relationships, and look at the fire there. It is all pride that brings on the one hand, it is all ego, but it either goes to ego or shame. And if we create an environment that tells him, “This behavior is called normal and you do not have anything to be ashamed of. More than that, you will have what to be proud of. And that is how you solve the problem.
Oren: Can you give me a picture where a parent has to give his child a punishment for something? A situation that is suitable for giving a punishment? And give me the scenario how to do it correctly?
Dr. Laitman: No. There is no picture. In Integral Education, the punishment - he has to feel inside so that he is so embarrassed from the shame.
Oren: You are at the second stage. How he is to feel. Give me a picture of something that, according to this integral norm, is not okay. It would be a deed that a child did that did not match the integral criteria of integral family. Give me a picture like that, where he will see that he did something wrong and then explain to me how you deal with it. Let us start with what is not okay? Is there a picture that… Give me something from life, something that has to do with the relationships in the family. Integral Education is about relationships, So, let us say…
Dr. Laitman: I will give you an example. Each one, each person may receive a bit of money. I was supposed to bring Petruzilia (parsley) from the market. Instead, of that I went to play football with my friends and the Petruzilia came home dirty and everything, but I was happy, everything was fine. And you completely bluff. It is an everyday example. You came home all filthy. What do you do? I am asking you.
Oren: With my pen there is no punishment. I am scared, I am waiting there with the pen.
Dr. Laitman: First of all you do nothing. I am waiting to hear something new. But what do you think? How can you educate him? What can you do?
Oren: First of all, I am furious as a parent, of course.
Dr. Laitman: Okay, so blow up. Now I am asking how you teach him that he did…
Oren: I am started to get hot. (as he is taking off his jacket).
Dr. Laitman: And the everyday life has come to the studio. How do you plan now? Reality. That he will feel such great shame that he will never forget having this obligation to the family and he will feel that it is toward the family. And how truly that he really cheated everyone, that he betrayed everyone in the worst possible way. How do they need to relate to him? How can they give him this feeling in a manner that it is not coming from them, but rather it is coming and it is awakening in him? And then he goes and he eats himself. He is eating himself up.
Nitzah: Is it a question? I think that for example I would... Maybe it is a game.
Dr. Laitman: remember my father gave me an exercise like this. But, I also would forget. I once did something I am even ashamed to say what I did now. Afterwards, I sat and I was doing my homework in the living room or something, and I felt that it wasn’t good. And he did not say anything. He did not do anything. But he just went around the table and said, “A shame.” That is it. And it was really, really assaulting. If he had screamed at me or hit me, but he said, “Just a shame.” “It is a disgrace,” sorry, that is what he said. It was really felt very strongly. And now the question comes, how could we bring that each time? Depends on whether it is a girl or a boy, what age, their relationships, but you need to create a situation like that. That either through a hint... kids absorb things quickly and they do not pay attention. He has to feel that.
Nitzah: But I was thinking while you talked about it how to convey that to him. Let us say he forgot. What happens is that he forgot. He forgot his family. It is not really the Petruzilia. You can create a situation where the family is pretending that they also forget something toward him. Let us say he asks for something, like to give him the same situation.
Dr. Laitman: No, no, no, no, no. That is like hitting him. It is the same thing like hitting him.
Nitzah: It is not like holding up a mirror: you forgot us, we forgot you.
Dr. Laitman: “Well, you cannot cook without that Petruzilia and so today we are not eating anything.” No, that it is not good. He has to understand it inside, that it only belongs to him and it comes from him. It does not come from the family or anyone else. That is the best, the ideal situation.
But, how do we cause him to feel that? I will tell you. Because if it is from the family, then he will get mad at everyone. It is protective, forceful.
Nitzah: It will cause him to be precisely the opposite. Oh, you are doing...
Dr. Laitman: He will hate them, because he will feel that they are the source of the bad feeling. He has to feel that the source of the bad feeling is inside him.
Nitzah: So now the question remains is how you cause him to feel bad about what he did?
Dr. Laitman: There is your homework.
Nitzah: We will think about it.
Oren: I want to give you an example.
Dr. Laitman: Do we have time?
Oren: Yes. Unfortunately I live in the city on the fourth floor, and with a not so great security situation in the city, I always make sure the kids know that the door has to always be locked. And if they are in the house and somebody knocks on the door, until they see, they are not allowed to open the door to anyone. But, if it is me, they can open the door to me only after they look through the hole and identify me. They have to ask who it is, look through the hole. If the light is off, they have to turn on the light in the hallway. If it is the father, if it is the mother, they can open the door. That is the house security procedure. So I come home. The kids are in the house. I knock on the door, they say, “Who is it?” I say, “It is Daddy.” According to the procedure, they are supposed to get up on a stool and look to make sure that it is really me and then open the door.
Now, if they opening it too fast, I know they skipped a few stages of the procedure. If it happened and they skip a few stages, the door opens, they are hugging me and I am like, “Hang on. Did you look through the hole?” And they are like, “No.” “It is because we know your voice. We do not want to go through the whole procedure.” So I say, “Okay, let us do it again. Close the door.” Then they go inside, they close the door. They wait and I wait outside and then we do the whole procedure according to the way I wanted to, from the beginning. We run the movie back. “Who is it?” “Father.” They turn the light on in the hallway, they look in the hole, etc.
Dr. Laitman: Do they still open the door and want to hug you?
Oren: I think so. I am smiling to myself because now I defined something that for sure is for their good. I know there are crazy people in the area. For sure it is for their own good. It is my obligation to do it.
So it has all the elements that we spoke about today. There is a definition of a way they should behave that is for their own good, I explained it to them dozens of times and everyone understands that there are the boundaries. They broke the boundaries because they did not carry out the procedure and I do not get fed up. I do it again and again every evening. But it is getting better. If I look up statistics and if I look at analytics, it is getting better. My question is, if according to your model, if it is never allowed...
Dr. Laitman: It is okay. It is okay what are you doing. I am okay people. We are carrying on with this.
Oren: Now, why did I bring up this example? What is good and what is not good. Because that last... what is good and what is not good? I am afraid not to... you said I am never, ever to punish them. They need feel inside, God forbid; someone should come into my house.
Dr. Laitman: Listen, here you talking about some external force that is threatening from which you are protecting, as a big person, you are going to do some protective things. And you as well toward that same element, that threat, you behave in the same manner. And therefore you are teaching them how to behave in the same manner. That is like toward the upper force. You are praying and the kids see you, “What, he is so small, he is praying to the upper force. What is happening to him? They do not think like that. Whatever nonreligious kids. Still, there is something above us. There are the blows of nature, God forbid, and war. Some government let us say. There are things like that, there is no choice. The same thing with robbers, etc.
So, here you are fine. Because it is not you dictating to them, but rather you are explaining to them that in our city there are situations like this. That is something else. In other words, you are in the same situation with them. It is not that you are saying to them, “You do.” You are saying, “Together we are doing this, because the element is above us and it is stronger than us.’
Nitzah: So now it is clear. There is a division between things that are external and things that are truly boundaries that I want to make in my house. Is there a difference between the mother’s role and the father’s role in setting boundaries?
Dr. Laitman: They need to always be together. For kids, it is no good to see mother and father separate. It has to be one thing. To the extent that they grow up, then there is something or it less mother and it is more the two of them. If they are small, then of course it is the mother, there is no question. But actually, the father always has to be in the background, behind the mother or next to her
Nitzah: Say there is a difference of opinion on a certain subject that has to do with setting boundaries. I can give an example
Oren: I have tons of examples from my house. The children are fighting between them. They are hitting each other. One approach says, “Let them organize themselves, by themselves.” The other approach is, “In a second they are going to kill each other. I have to stop this right away.” What is the subject?
Nitzah: Differences of opinions and how to relate to it.
Oren: What do I do now? I am learning this course how to be an integral parent. The kids are fighting.
Dr. Laitman: I would say first of all put them in front of the other and say, “Each one give the other five blows.” Why? Just like that. Not with excitement, but after half an hour that you distanced them. First of all I would distance them. Let them cool down. So I should intervene. I am allowed to intervene, but I am really asking, try an exercise like this. Now bring them back to each other, say each one, half an hour after we stop. “Each one give the other five blows.” About half an hour. Catch them when they are playing together. When they get into the next situation. “Now, you each have to give the other five blows.” What do I want to achieve with that? ”I am allowing you. You wanted, and did it yourselves before. Do it now. What is the problem?”
Oren: How can I tell that to him, to hit him?
Dr. Laitman: You have to teach them what it means to want to hit someone and what it means to hit someone. There is a big difference. I want to hit someone and you have to give them, you have to let them feel how I do it from an inner urge and how I do it out of a calculated desire.
Oren: I do not know. I am not reading you.
Dr. Laitman: You ask them: “Why can you not hit each other now?” Learn from them, what they say to you. Now we are playing, we are friends, but what was before? What was so bad before? Teach them that it is possible, that it is possible not to be under inner urges and that they should make fun of themselves. That now they cannot hit each other. They cannot, because while they are hitting each other, you tell them to hug each other. That is impossible. But now it is the opposite situation. You are together, you are friends, hit each other. That is given them the perception of what it means to be onto the inner urge and to do acts without their brains. And now do it according to your brains.
Nitzah: And then what happens to them? I am trying to imagine it. I imagine it as something I will make fun of.
Dr. Laitman: It even makes you like ashamed. They have learned that there are situations like this and there are situations like that. But this situation comes at once. For a child, the fact is that it happened an hour ago that they hit each other, and now for them it is like two worlds. Now they are friends, they are buddies. They forgot it, it is not like us, that we cannot forget something for years. For them, to bring these two situations to one, “Now you are hugging each other? Now, hit each other.” For them they do not understand how it is possible. And this is what we need to teach them.
Nitzah: So now you gave me a solution for the issue of fights between brothers. But the original question was the difference of opinions. Let us say he has a certain opinion about a certain subject. For example to intervene when they are fighting and I say do not intervene.
Oren: Difference of opinions between parents. They are fighting in the room. She says, according to what I understood, we should not intervene. Let them get organized. Let them figure it out. Well, if we let them figure it out, they are going to kill each other. And if possible, to give them a little punishment, so they will remember it.
Nitzah: So here is an example. There are two different approaches. So, what do we do?
Oren: We need to… What do we need to do, what do we have to do? How do we get out of it?
Dr. Laitman: In your case, I do not know. I do not know. In somebody else’s case, you need to turn this out, turn this situation off somehow and verify it with your teacher. If one thinks like that and the other thinks like that and they cannot reach… you do not have some instruction book from Integral Education at home that answers that.
Nitzah: No.
Dr. Laitman: If you do not have that, then I do not know. So, I am asking you live.
Nitzah: Let us say I could call you. Let us say we are coming to the course and we are coming back to the course. I am telling you we have a situation like this, that two kids are fighting in the room.
Oren: But do not focus on the fighting. It is just an example. There can be a thousand examples.
Dr. Laitman: Go into the room and start fighting next to them.
Why? Because, why. Give them an example, a bad example. It is fine. They will stop right away and they will look at you. And you will continue fighting. And they will really be ashamed of what is happening. Then you will start explaining to them.
Nitzah: In general what I am starting to understand from this approach is that actually, my approach and his approach are apparently not wrong, but there is a completely new approach that is not that and not this. It is something else altogether. That is what I am starting to…
Dr. Laitman: I cannot give solutions in every situation. That is clear.
Oren: We are not looking for solutions for each situation, but for the principle of how to a deal with differences of opinion between the parents.
Dr. Laitman: Those same differences of opinion, start verifying them in this war between you, in front of the kids. Now give them... the mother says, “Let them hit each other,” and start fighting, we will do it really strong Then you sit down in the family workshop and discuss it.
Oren: That is interesting. Okay, our time is up. I would like to continue.
Dr. Laitman: You can bring them into the decision make them big, that they should be part of everything. That is called education.
Oren: So our subject in this discussion was setting boundaries, why we need boundaries, how do we make boundaries correctly. We talked about punishments. How would you like to summarize this main insight?
Dr. Laitman: Never, except for emergency situations, extraordinary situations, we never set boundaries ourselves, so they will not feel that we are the police, that we are guards, that we are some judge or something, but only friends. Great friend, big friends and that we are respected in their eyes. And we do not do anything in a direct manner against their ego. Otherwise, they will hate us. Maybe they will hide it, or whatever. We only cause them to learn through all kinds of sources, external sources, foreign sources. And then these external sources that warn them from outside do not do this, along with them, we are together as friends against these external sources. You see, there is no choice. We need to do this. I am with you.
Oren: Thank you very much, Rav Laitman. Very fascinating lesson. Thank you for being with us. Thank you, Nitzah. I am with you. We are with you, the New Life, all the best.