Morning Lesson December 8, 2023

Transcription is made from simultaneous translation, which leaves a possibility for differences in the audio.

Part 2:

 Baal HaSulam. The Wisdom of Kabbalah and Philosophy

 (The Spiritual Is a Force without a Body)

Reading: (00:22) The Spiritual Is a Force without a Body - Twice

1. R. (02:39) What does he want to tell us? Philosophy does not belong even to what it deals with because it lacks the vessels with which to investigate reality, and so everything it speaks of comes to it from its imagination, a wild imagination typically. They speak without any basis, without any foundation but that's how it is, that it happened in history. 

2. S. (03:25) What is spirituality that has no image of space or time?

R. That is spirituality.

S. What does it mean that it doesn't have any image or space or time?

R. When we speak about spirituality, those are forces that have no expression in our world of feelings. 

S. What are forces?

R. Forces like you see in nature, there are many forces, they're also such forces that we cannot detect. 

S. Why are there forces in nature that I can detect and in spirituality?

R. That's your built, that's why they relate to nature, such that you can investigate everything and you can reveal everything and they are without limit.

S. What's missing in our sensory receptions so that we can be able to perceive spiritual forces?

R. He lacks the vessels for it, he lacks the feelings for it.

S. What doesn't he have, if he doesn't have the vessels for it, can he develop them?

R. No, how come, if he lacks it completely?

S. How does he know there's such a thing, that it exists?

R. No, let’s say you lack a few senses, how can you tell that you miss them?

S. I hear people saying that there are some other senses.

R. Okay, that's okay, so you can also develop in you those senses, but if you've never heard about their existence in this world, what will you do?

S. So, now we're hearing from Baal HaSulam and from you, and from the Kabbalists, that there are spiritual forces that have no image, space, or time.

R. Yes.

 

S. How do we begin to depict, to locate such forces?

R. It does not depend on a person, it depends on the desire of the Creator, to turn to a person and give him those senses that he can open and develop and feel through them a new reality.

S. And are they some kind of conditions for the Creator to give him those senses?

R. Yes, of course, these conditions are for a person to develop in his past incarnations and be capable, be capable of opening up the senses in him, these five new senses.

S. Then what are those five new senses?

R. Then he begins to feel in them an additional reality, on top of what he's feeling already. In addition to seeing, hearing, taste, smell, and touch, he begins to feel another reality, one that previously he did not think about, did not speak about, or hear about.

S. Is part of man's work depicting those spiritual forces, that spiritual reality, even before he attains them?

R. He can't do anything but carry out a few actions that will help him come closer to opening up these powers, that's it.

3. S. (07:59) I want to try to refine the difference between the wisdom of Kabbalah and philosophy. When I hear you talking now, I have this inner sensation that these are true words, I don't know how to explain it, I just hear it that way. And when I examine these things rationally, logically, I'm talking about senses I don't feel, things that I have no tools to grasp with, which is very similar to what you said earlier about philosophy, that it has no foundation or basis. The question is what is the difference between me as a person who hears you to someone who doesn't have a point in the heart that comes and hears those words from you for him, is that philosophy?

R. I don't understand.

S. Again, a person who doesn't have a point in the heart and hears now the words we're talking about, for him is that considered philosophy?

R. What?

S. Things that he hears that he has to attain five senses, spiritual senses that we don't have the vessels at the moment to understand or perceive?

R. How would you define philosophy?

S. I heard you talk about that it has no foundation, no grip on it, no way to grasp it. 

R. So we shouldn't even talk about it.

S. What do you mean philosophy, let's say my children, they don't have any they don't have a point in the heart for the sake of it. When they come in here everything I'm talking about now, about the wisdom of Kabbalah, the spiritual senses the forces and reality that are concealed from our eyes, for them who don't have that inner inclination it's actually philosophy. They have no foundation to grasp it.

R. Yes?

S. I'm trying to discern a person who doesn't have a point in the heart, for him the wisdom of Kabbalah is another philosophy that exists in reality?

R. You can say that, yes. 

4. S. (10:32) Why did Israel necessitate that counterpart that Israel calls philosophy, or that thing that has no foundation, and the nations of the world actually needed all of those imaginations?

R. It's not that Israel was given the wisdom of Kabbalah, and the nations of the world were given philosophy, no, it’s not like that. Simply, we will see how he writes about philosophy, meaning people who yearn for the wisdom of nature the way they imagined it to themselves from within their will to receive, they call that philosophy. 

5. S. (11:53) You talked about five spiritual senses, new ones, what are those new five spiritual senses?

R. Five spiritual vessels that we reveal through the study of the wisdom of Kabbalah are five vessels which are built on top of the desire. And through them, we reveal new phenomena in our world of feelings, in the world of our perception.

6. S. (12:49) The topic is very important and there's the heading that says, “The spiritual is a force without a body.” How do I as a Kabbalah student, who can from my study and yearning and probably some development that we develop, how do I pass this to the whole world that philosophy is also a certain bridge that is trying to explain to us, even though they don't have the tools we have, how do we make that transition?

R. You're asking about something else, you're asking about development, about explaining, that's something that we're not, not learning. But from our learning, we gradually teach people that we can learn only that which exists only within our senses, our senses, that's what's important to us. Baal HaSulam writes that which we cannot feel we would not define by name or word, it's all according to a feeling. So, if we can't feel something, we're not allowed to speak of it because it's imagination, that you're going to simply build on.

S. I feel something, and probably every point in the heart feels, and it turns out that we get to meet the external ones. How can I convince him that my feeling is right compared to his feeling which says there's no foundation to it?

R. You don't need to speak to one another because you lack common feelings.

S. So philosophy is also a certain transition that's trying to put into people in order to pour, seemingly, the clothing of this Kli out of logic, out of physical laws, no?

R. Okay.

Reading: (15:31) A Spiritual Kli [Vessel] Is Called “A Force”

7. R. (16:39) You can't say that it clarified anything but, yes friend?

8. S. (16:44) In the article there's this division between those who attain spirituality, and from that they talk about it, and those that who do not attain it and are philosophizing about the measures. Let's talk about just those who attain: Meaning a person feels that he's attaining, that he senses in his senses a spiritual reality. One will be a real Kabbalist and one will be a not real Kabbalist, is there a certain technical measuring tool in Kabbalah that differentiates between one who truly attains and feels spiritual reality and one that thinks that he's feeling the spiritual reality but he's not? What is the scale or measurement?

R. It's all relative to the person in attainment, all relative to the person in attainment.

S. That's clear, I'm not asking from the side of the one who’s attaining, but technically if you can, if it can be defined, is there a Kabbalistic definition to what is called a spiritual feeling, attainment of spirituality? That according to that definition you measure, he is, he isn’t.

R. Who is defining it, and who's measuring it?

S. What are the definitions that Kabbalah gives?

R. Kabbalah speaks only relative to a person in attainment.

S. And what is the definition?

R. One who develops in him vessels of bestowal, according to the size of these vessels, he begins to attain spiritual forces which are all forces of bestowal.

S. One person feels I have developed vessels of bestowal, vessels of love, and in them, I feel the spiritual reality. And next to him, there's another person who also feels I have developed vessels of bestowal and love, and I'm revealing a spiritual reality in them. One, let’s say, he's a real Kabbalist and one that is not. What technically differentiates between them?

R. That a third person comes and decides between them.

S. What is that third factor?

R. He feels the one, he feels the other, and he says in this one there are spiritual vessels and in the other, there aren't.

S. Wonderful, so that third one, that's kind of like the pure scale or measurement, if a person doesn't always feel?

R. Yes.

S. So what is that ruler, what is that definition that cuts?

R. That he is in truth, in the spiritual perception, and he can identify with the one who is in spirituality and the other one who is not in spirituality. And there's nothing else to say besides that, there simply isn't. 

9. S. (20:25) If this third one isn't there for the sake of it, a true kabbalistic Rav, that can now consult him and talk to him and define with his body?

R. Then nobody knows, you see how many religions you have in the world, belief systems, and methods.

S. What will happen when Rav is not here in his body, who will say that these will rise and say we’re real Kabbalists, we have attained godliness and love of others?

R. I don't know, the Creator is great, seriously, there's no answer, there's no answer. The Creator will take care of it. 

S. Is this something that simply needs to be left to the greatness of the Creator, is there a way to prepare for this and ready ourselves for it?

R. Yes, what you have in your hands right now, books, the internet, everything that we have there that we developed, and the important thing is the Ten. 

S. Meaning to adhere to this is the unique source that will lead me to there and I have nothing else?

R. Yes, of course, and you don't need anything else.

S. Because if someone will come and say that I'm the new Messiah?

R. Let him say, send him to the mental institution. 

10. S. (22:15) What are the conditions for birthing a new feeling?

R. A deficiency and the screen.

S. Because a new feeling won't be born, the stages of the ladder, is it more feeling, more feeling, more feeling. So there needs to be a certain stage or another stage is born, another stage is born, otherwise, we'll be stuck about it. So, we need to have more feeling, what begets a feeling, does habit begets a feeling?

R. Habit, no, habit can actually extinguish the feeling.

S. So what does it birth, I have to go with it, I have to grasp it, give me something that births a feeling.

R. When you come to a new place, let's say, they give you a new job, they teach you; by delving into this work, you begin to acquire senses. This is like this, and this is like that, and this is good and this is bad, and it becomes none as wise experience.

S. But I’m talking about here, this is my work here, what do I do here?

R. The same thing, the same thing, you need to think about what is written in the books, and this will bring you to a new feeling. 

S. I'll tell you why I'm asking this, there's a matter of going out of the box, you can go around and around, it's another new feeling that's being born. That's a problem, it's something that's missing from me, I'm talking about me personally or maybe each of us apart. That Rav is in a degree that can see us, what can we press on in order to birth a new feeling? What should we hear now press on, where should we put our finger?

R. In order to get a new feeling?

S. Yes, yes in order for that?

R. That you don't have it now?

S. A prayer?

R. A prayer, nothing else will help you because it's in control of the Creator. If we understand one another. 

11. S. (24:52) Maybe this is an opportunity to scrutinize another thing: We are reading here about real Kabbalists who have spiritual attainment. We, thank God, get to study from Rav the method of Rabash and Baal HaSulam, how to reach spiritual attainment.

R. Yes.

S. We heard several times in the past from Rav that it could be people who are especially pure, and it's not through the method of work that we're learning and exercising between us in the Ten that we’ll reach a certain attainment of spirituality, to a certain spiritual illumination, but it won't be true attainment. Can we scrutinize what's the difference between that specific attainment that very refined people can feel, and the true attainment, what's the difference between the two?

R. Between imagination and truth, I guess, what you're describing here.

S. I feel a certain illumination from spirituality but not in an imaginary way, a tangible way.

R. Yes.

S. I heard several times from Rav in the past that there are certain very fine people who can feel a certain amount of spirituality, but it's not true attainment that is developed and grows with the vessels, lights, and screens.

R. Attainment begins from a certain level of feeling, just like in this world, you have many people who exist, and they live, they know how to use this or that and the other, like little children or more mature children, that's how it is.

S. Those little degrees with that certain illumination of spirituality, an especially pure person can feel it that way?

R. There are those who feel more and those who feel less.

S. That doesn't get reached, a level that’s defined as true spiritual attainment?

R. No.

S. What's the difference between a certain measure of illumination that a pure person can attain and the true attainment, where's the definition that defines between these two?

R. Illumination and light.

S. So can we scrutinize the difference between the two?

R. No, I cannot say, so I cannot say so that it would be clear; there's an illumination, a person has a certain mood. And then there's the light that comes to deliberately, and he knows where to, what for, so on, and so forth.

S. So we can't explain it?

R. More precisely, no, because there are no vessels here.

S. It talks in the article here about the difference between those who feel spirituality and those who don't.

R. Yes.

S. So when a person feels a certain illumination of spirituality because of the purity of his soul?

R. Yes?

S. He feels that specific illumination because of the purity of his soul, he feels it, right?

R. Yes.

S. It's a feeling?

R. Yes.

S. It's a feeling, not, he feels?

R. Yes.

S. But he has yet to attain spiritual, true attainment that’s Kabbalistic?

R. There is such a thing, yes?

S. So make this splice between the two, as far as definitions.

R. As far as definitions go, we talk about it like GAR and ZAT, vessels of Katnut, smallness and greatness, Gadlut, so what does that give us?

S. I'm seeking to discern the difference between a person that feels a certain illumination for spirituality and there can be many like that. And a person who attains spirituality which are probably less, and we need to work through the method of Baal HaSulam and Rabash and Rav and the Ten with great exertion.

R. Yes?

S. I'm seeking the differentiation as far as definitions between this and that?

R. The differences in vessels, are there vessels of smallness, Katnut, then a certain feeling, not so clear, and vessels that are under the control of the lower one.

12. S. (30:09) Are all the religions also based on philosophies?

R. As far as I can tell, yes.

13. S. (30:29) What are the exertion and adhesion in the friends and the Creator that teach us?

R. Yes.

14. S. (30:54) We read the article and prepare a question and talk, what do we need to pay attention to so that the conversation will not become philosophy?

R. We wish to know by which actions we can come to revelation, revelation. 

15. S. (31:45) Sometimes a person immerses into thoughts and doesn't feel the body or time or pain, doesn't feel anything. In that place he simply loses all his senses around him, seemingly it sounds like the force without a body, what's that state?

R. I don't know, I don't know, I did not read about it, and I did not go through that.

16. S. (32:28) Baal HaSulam touches on the topic that we're talking about now, in a more openly, in an open manner it seems, in the article in the Introduction of the Book of Zohar. There he says that there are four attainments, seemingly: matter, the form that is clothed in the matter.

R. Abstract form and essence?

S. Yes, and he said that the form and the form that is clothed in form, you can make a study make a science about it. But the abstract one, it's seemingly a field in which we have both this and that: on one hand, a person never receives a deficiency if there's no, nothing inside there that he feels as a part of nature. On the other hand, a person can also err, there, it seems like that specifically happens in philosophy. Because in that gray area where he feels that there's something but it's not because he doesn't know it of his qualities, but rather he cannot define it within him when he's in reception. But all the science and philosophy go around that specifically, and it seems that it's a clear feeling that the Kabbalists know what they're talking about. And philosophers, there’s something there, they feel, I guess something, I think the previous friend wanted to say about the fact that there are very pure people, relative to where they are in the vessels of reception, they feel that there is something they're trying to open.

R. It's possible that what you're saying has some room, but it's not science, anyway.

S. I agree, there are mistakes and errors there, but besides that, we're in contact with scientists and philosophers, and we need to in some way explain things, that this is the truth and that's not. So we need to penetrate a little bit deeper inside those things.

R. I'm willing to do that but with which vessels, based on what, how can we investigate philosophy? Baal HaSulam does it a little bit. 

17. S. (35:23) It is known that what the philosophers did, is they took all the principles of wisdom of Kabbalah and based on that, built something that is abstract, that today there is no benefit or use for. But it is also known that the philosophers, the first ones from ancient Greece, at least some of them studied with great Kabbalists. The question is why did the great Kabbalists teach them, after all, they knew in advance it was going in the wrong direction?

R. This is what I can say about it, I think that they thought that, by that, they were bringing humanity closer to the truth. There are people who cannot yet grasp the wisdom of Kabbalah the way it is, their vessels are not developed enough. But gradually by studying philosophy and through incorporation between them, they will gradually come closer to the wisdom of Kabbalah. That is the explanation I give.

18. S. (36:46) Maybe I will take a concrete specific example: Rav told us that in the past he met Sufi, wise people.

R. Not wise, but one or two!

S. Okay, one or two, even one wise Sufi, let’s say, how does he enter the definitions, what is he reveal, what does he feel, what definition does he give according to today's definition?

R. He is a wise man, through his study, and his exertion, he developed senses in him, and he feels spirituality to some extent, I can't say exactly to what extent, how to check it, that’s it.

S. Is that called real attainment or not?

R. I'm not going to compare his attainment and Kabbalists’ attainment according to discernments, lights, and vessels, no, I don't want to get into it. 

19. S. (38:16) The question about the Kabbalist. Baal HaSulam opens for us more of the whole matter of attainment and feelings and the spiritual ladder and Rabash when he opens articles he talks more about the heart and the internal work. So, with them in the Kabbalists there are different degrees of attainment in the manner in which they receive them?

R. Yes, of course.

20. S. (38:51) Let’s say that a student that is in a preparatory stage, like the majority of who’s here. He only has a point in a heart, and he is not yet of attainment but there is still some kind of inner feeling that the truth that the wisdom of Kabbalah talks about but let us say for the time being he is creating certain dissemination materials, you can say that is also philosophy because you do not feel yet what you are talking about.

R. So?

S. I'm asking you how to overcome this difficulty as a person who is in developmental stages.

R. He's going through stages of development in order to reach attainment.

S. Right, but he is talking about all kinds of things that are connected to attainment, the Creator, some Upper Force, that we don’t feel yet.

R. We are talking about this, but it is clear to us that we are not in it.

S. That's what you can say outwards that we are?

R. We have to, whatever is outside of us, we have to say that whatever is good is on the outside when we speak about it.

S. When I, let’s say, talk about the Upper Force, what is philosophy for me, and what’s not philosophy for me, in order to get into it?

R. I don’t know. According to how you speak right now it is best if you don’t speak.

21. S. (40:20) I'm never interested in philosophy, and I don't understand what Baal HaSulam is trying to prove here. What do we need to learn from the article in order to advance onwards? What to take from it? I don't understand, to tell you the truth.

R. According to how you see things you can skip this article. Enough, how much can you ask?

22. S. (40:58) Philosophy actually replaced in the people of Israel, the people of attainment, that we are in rule of the people. During the ruin of the temple gradually the generations cascaded downwards and there was a stage in which the leaders of the people could not be in attainment and that’s how it happened. How was this deterioration created where people of attainment do not lead the people?

R. It has nothing to do with philosophy.

S. Right now philosophy for a long period of time has become the method that guides a person, explains how you live, what you live, and the people of Israel, the Kabbalist explained this to the people and guided them how to live. I'm talking about this split that took place in the people of Israel. Did it happen because the nation kind of descended and there were no guides? What happened there?

R. Simply, instead of advancing using the wisdom of Kabbalah they advanced, he’s writing about it in a few places, they advanced through their intellect.

S. Is that like the Greeks, we’re now in Hanukkah, start to bring a new method that some took, yes?

R. Yes.

S. How do we return to the approach that there are no leaders as far as the Kabbalist, not the Greek or the philosophy?

R. That's using Torah. When we connect between us, we demand the revelation of the Creator in the connection between us and it is through the revelation of the Creator we wish to rise to spiritual degrees.

S. The people that are not in this, what do they need to do? Do they need to do acts of connection and from that he will get to know how the method works?

R. He has to learn how to connect. He has to learn how to connect and from that, he will learn about what his good future depends on, only connection.

S. Meaning as a method it would have to be clarified as something that does not lead him to the good. Will it be this against that?

R. Philosophy works entirely, is a question really, it works not toward the connection of people. If it had worked toward bringing people together then we would respect it, we would accept it, and take it as a part of the wisdom of Kabbalah that we make philosophy the intro into Kabbalah but that is not the case. They dug themself into a science but a science without a root, without a foundation as the basis.

S. There are Kabbalists in every generation, but the people do not grasp them with our connection.

R. Yes, and that is why Kabbalists were always far and few in between every generation.

23. S. (45:13) I want to understand, on the side of philosophy, a Kabbalist says, “What I do not attain, I do not define by name,” that is clear. It is very clear what's not perceived we do not define. What I do not attain, what am I imagining in it, thinking that it is right, what do they say to themselves the philosophers?

R. He says that what he is speaking about exists and now his job is to put some order in it because he feels a new phenomenon.

S. So based on what does he make this in him?

R. He makes this order based on what he is thinking about, what else do you have more than what’s in a person's head?

S. That's what the Kabbalist said to himself, I have a head, I have a mind, so I’m able to make order.

R. Yes, there is nothing higher than me.

S. Then if some other philosopher comes then and says, I have a completely different intellect. How do they deal with it?

R. Let them be like that.

S. Because he is so locked up inside himself, he doesn't understand that other Kabbalists say it differently, or are there others? 

R. They can share it, they can divide it, what else can you do?

S. Baal HaSulam says that he is very happy that the real science developed after that. That is the practical one, and because of that, he kills the philosophy. What is the difference between them?

R. I cannot say. I don't know because not all science can be built on a tangible experience. That’s why there are many parts in philosophy that are not ready to be scrutinized scientifically. 

S.  Let's say physics.

R. Physics is something else. Physics it is clear to you that it is the truth because we can test it although there are parts in physics that go beyond the imagination.

S. So, there it already becomes philosophy meaning, Einstein said this, and he says that.

R. Yes, but that is not known, cannot be known. Nevertheless, they were not founded on imaginations, they don't know for the time being, they don't it is not understood but they would speak about it openly.

S. Can we continue with that?

R.  Yes.

S. Science says you can make assumptions, but you can also negate them. You can prove that it doesn't exist and that is how they build and synthesize their analysis all the time. What is the difference between that and the attainment of a Kabbalist?

R. Attainment is truth. He explains what vessels he uses to attain, and what he is attaining. Those who attain can see that he is right, he is correct.

S. Later he, himself will see that on the next degree that there is.

R. No, we say, we speak about science like science.

S. How does Kabbalist relate to a degree that he already has a new degree, and he looks at the previous degree? What does he say about it, that was the truth at the given time? 

R. No, no, it was the truth, but it was the truth on a lower degree. So what?

S. And he can't say that what he thought before was a mistake?

R. Wait, what you learned in the first grade is incorrect now?

S. Yes, but it is not spiritual attainment. For me, first grade, and second grade are just the development of the brain.

R. So what?

S. So as far as he is concerned there's no difference?

R. There's no difference.

24. S. (50:27) There's an article that we read, and we don’t know where to give questions. I want to ask a question because we are talking about it a lot now, in the prophecy of Baal HaSulam talks about him reaching very high up, but not attaining a certain thing that these sages are talking about, and the Creator tells him do you want me to lower you a degree so you will understand what we are talking about. Am I dreaming that I'll get an answer that I'll be able to understand, but what happens here? Could it be that a person rises to a higher degree and doesn't have attainment? What is the difference between spiritual ascent and receiving certain wisdom that a person can talk of?

R. There is a spiritual ascent where a person sees, but what he sees he does not understand yet. Like a child for example, on his degree he sees something, but he can't understand what he's seeing, he cannot penetrate the internality of this picture that he is seeing.

S. He doesn't have the details?

R. He doesn't know how it is working, how the parts are interconnected, and so on.

S. I can understand that, but what is written there is the Creator tells him if you want, I will lower you a degree so you can understand what is being spoken, that’s not clear. I’m imagining that if a person rises up, he understands, he grasps, he feels together with the vessels that are developing in him.

R. Yes and no. Also, we see much more than what we understand. Even in our world, even now.

S. Can it be that philosopher, maybe they saw but didn't know how to explain what they were seeing and they tried with their brains to explain it?

R. Yes that's possible.

25. S. (52:50) In this lesson many things are rising up, from all kinds of directions. What do you recommend doing to not get confused?

R. We won't be confused, don't worry those are just small scrutinies in the classroom. I'm not going to let you get confused, we will be fine, do not worry.

26. S. (53:25) Where does psychology enter between philosophy and science?

R. Psychology studies using what a person thinks one way or another.

S. Okay that is clear, how does Kabbalah relate to it?

R. The wisdom of Kabbalah does not relate to psychology so much.

S. Is it in the cloud of philosophy or is it more science and study and research?

R. It's science, it's an investigative discipline but because we are talking about what is happening inside a living person you can't take it as something that is 100% clear.

S. And what does Baal HaSulam respect in psychology?

R. What Baal HaSulam respects about psychology is ultimately it brings a person down to the ground.

S. What is special about the first philosophers, Plato, and Aristotle, is there something special about them?

R. They were great philosophers and they worked to attain the essence and reception of humans. If they were alive today, you wouldn't look at them.

S. What does it mean that they attain the essence of man? What attainment did they have?

R. They understood a little more than the people around them but not more than that, they also thought there was a certain spirit, look what they are writing about, very primitive.

S. When actually did philosophy become despicable like he says, from the beginning, or did it have a beginning that was something right?

R. It is holding itself seemingly as if it is scaring itself as if it understands how reality is built.

27. S. (56:30) We see that in order to be a Kabbalist we need to follow a Kabbalist and be honest with ourselves, change ourselves, you're egoists, and love our friends.

R. Yes, it’s that simple.

S. And the question, it is clear that every regular person wants to take something from the wisdom of Kabbalah off for himself for his life.

R. I don't think you can apply something from Kabbalah in life today. There are conditions in which we exist and work, study, together with friends, and things like that, and gradually it will influence us and the whole world.

S. If I could refine the questions different Kabbalists had different qualities, let’s say Baal HaSulam and Rav Cook great Kabbalists of their times?

R. I didn't understand the question.

S. Are there great Kabbalists like Baal HaSulam and Rav Cook but they probably perceived the wisdom of Kabbalah differently?

R. So, what are you trying to scrutinize among them?

S. How a regular person can accept the fact that the Kabbalists are Kabbalists of truth, even though they express themselves differently?

R. I don't think there are any disagreements between them, simply people with differences in their uniqueness.

S. I don't mean that they're different but they're different in expressing differently. For a regular person it feels that they are different.

R. Well that is how they feel but in essence they are not.

28. S. (58:46) A practical example, this night I travel to the lesson with great trepidation because the friends are waiting for me. I see the classroom is half empty, how in such a state, what is the part of philosophy and the part of Kabbalah?

R. It has nothing to do with Kabbalah, neither Kabbalah nor philosophy only your expectations of the meeting in the group.

S. Can that expectation be called prayer?

R. No.

29. S. (59:52) Is the difference between Kabbalists and philosophers the fact that in Kabbalah there is a complete agreement of what is the work that is attained, and the philosophers is just disagreement?

R. Yes, you can say that although there are many disagreements among Kabbalists as well because nevertheless, they speak about things that you can’t put on the table, so to speak, and measure using some external vessels, meter, millimeter, kilogram, gram, or so on and so forth.

30. S. (01:00:41) I have a question regarding the article, what does it mean that even the name ‘light’ is borrowed? What do we need to realize between us, within, noticing that it is not real?

R. Lights we refer to light in our world, photons, it is nevertheless, some form of some phenomenon in physics. What's happening in the air, in the water, whichever medium we see the lights in but in the wisdom of Kabbalah light is something completely different. It is something that is given from the Creator to the created beings and the created beings receive it and then they also feel the Source, the nature of the source in it, that the Creator, it is not like what we think.

31. S. (01:02:16) Rav, throughout the years I'm studying with you, you always describe a certain degree of development. After a few years, I don't know a year or two it is revealed, it is always revealed different than what we thought, opposite, and gradually we managed to connect to what you described. Well, that direct feeling of the degree that you are describing and also being in the reality being revealed before our eyes, is that a certain measure of attainment in us?

R. Yes, of course.

S. It really strengthens us along the way because it kind of proves that the path is real and tangible. It is also in relation to the broad public as well.

R. If you have to have a desire, that is the whole thing. We can turn to an audience that wants to have a desire but if they do not have a desire how will you give it to them?

S. Everyone wants proof and direction. The question is, can we take your states the general states that you are describing, and connect them with a reality that is being revealed so that people understand?

R. Tell me if we did not send kids to school how many kids would go to school on their own?

S. Not even one.

R. That's it so, what can you do?

S. What should we do?

R. We try to reach all kinds of layers of the population, speak to them, awaken them, and ignite them but you see that it is not simple. People don't want to learn, they don't want to know, they want to feel here, now.

32. S. (01:04:45) It seems like the main difference between what is in Kabbalah that doesn’t exist in anything else is the opening of the heart. There comes such a feeling that you're not afraid and you wanted to truly clothe the heart of everyone, and when one does that, you can really feel that it emerges from this field that you want to connect to. How not to forget that this really happened?

R. There's no reason to be afraid, you have to go toward it with open hands and accept it and feel it.

S. And when we talked about being humble before, maybe not to open up too much?

R. We need to be careful because we can harm people gravely by that and that is forbidden.

33. S. (01:06:08) Can we say that those vessels, the spiritual vessels, that are with Kabbalists that are lacking for philosophers are founded on the intellect and feeling of His energetic altruistic matters that can be developed according to the advice of the Kabbalists that we have here?

R. Yes, yes, you are essentially a scientist. Write an article about it and we will continue from there together.

34. S. (01:07:03) You talked about us developing a sense that is not in this world and because of that, we see a new world but at first, we do not understand it. So, how do we understand this new world if we never talk about how we feel and those new degrees like that?

R. Just like we are born in this world, we have a mother, relatives, and a father. The whole world is arranged in such a way to help us grow up healthy, smart, and so on. The same thing goes for spirituality, we are born in spirituality and many forces, many spiritual forces. conspire to help us stand up and get on our feet and grow up correctly, don't worry, the spiritual world is waiting for us, He wants to develop us, all the way to the end of correction.

35. S. (01:08:40) In order for the Torah of the Arie and Baal HaSulam will be used and received as science we will have to attain the study of ten sefirot with all the resolutions that are described there?

R. No we can't, the study of TES is also not a complete book that speaks about all the different modes of wisdom of Kabbalah that take place in the final worlds and so on and so forth. No, things are missing there as well, we simply need to take what we need to take from there in order to enter spirituality and then all of our development will depend on how much we are inside spirituality and how we developed by ourselves.

36. S. (01:09:44) He said that philosophy is not for the connection of people, so how do we correctly relate philosophy in this way?

R. It doesn't grow out of the fact that there is connection between people, and they all come from one source, no.

S. You also have this sages dialogue, what they use in philosophy, has that anything to do with the connection between people?

R. No, the dialogues are also quite egoistic, no. 

37. S. (01:10:57) If we can say that a Kabbalist and a philosopher is not a person, so when do we get rid of that philosopher?

R. Not before we attain the goal, when it becomes clear to us what is the place of science and philosophy in our world.

S. On behalf of our degrees is it until correction or when we enter spirituality?

R. No when we enter spirituality it is clear to us what is going on. 

38. S. (01:11:49) I want to know attainment cannot be explained unless someone attains it, right?

R. Yes, of course. There's no attainment without the one who attains because you do not have anything without a deficiency. If you have someone with a deficiency and then he attains it according to the degree and the intensity of the deficiency.

39. S. (01:12:48) So philosophy is actually built on methodical arguments that are rational and in them the five senses participate but Kabbalah that we study so we are different than philosophy that we actually reveal the Sixth Sense. So how should we work with it actually in the ten, that it will lift us and not like Baal HaSulam says that it will lower us?

R. We haven’t reached the Sixth Sense yet, it is called faith above reason, it is not a simple thing. When we reach it and we investigate and we get to know it, then we'll be able to also speak about it. For the time being, no we can't.

40. S. (01:14:27) I heard you say that you can't use anything from the wisdom of Kabbalah for our life except for our conditions and the study. The whole world gets corrected with us will they reach the same positions we are in and also study with us?

R. No I think that there will be different conditions for study and for life in this new generation. Not in the way we see it today.

S. That's how you see it?

R. Yes, I see that it is really, it is on the threshold, we are approaching it.