Senya: Hello, dear friends. We continue with the broadcast of our talk show, Secrets of the Eternal Book,

SEMION VINOKUR, Film director, script writer

and we are still talking about the Chapter "Shemot", (Hebrew for 'names'). This is such a milestone chapter, so we shall linger and talk more about this desire of ours that emerges in us -- Moshe -- that releases us out of our ego.

Shemot Broadcast 5

As always, in the studio with us, is Dr. Michael Laitman

Senya: Good afternoon!

Rav: How do you do?

Senya: We have reached such a serious state when the Creator, for the first time, appears to Moshe, that desire of ours, and now he starts to direct it, direct it back to Egypt,

sending him there to work like a spy.

Rav: In other words, a person who comes to work on himself seriously, he seems to elevate himself above his ego, runs away from it, killing the Egyptian within him, the egoist, and estranges himself from the use of his ego. We see this in the people who come and start studying, how eagerly they want to progress, how they integrate themselves in the group and make it a kind of a new family [for themselves]. It is like Moshe coming to Jethro (Reuel) and marrying his daughter Zipporah who birthed his sons. He called his son Gershom, meaning the son who was born outside of egoism, far beyond it. That's quite a name. And then, right during this ascent, a certain awareness and sensation starts evolving in him: there is a subtle manifestation of the Creator, a revelation of this supreme force, or at least that it exists. And now, by the dictation of this revelation, he goes back to the ego, like into the jaws of a boa,

Senya: Certainly.

Rav: and he comes there, and he is not afraid, although the Pharaoh has to kill him, he stands in front of the Pharaoh and demands not only to have mercy, not proclaiming “Let us make peace, old man,” or anything else -- no -- he comes to him as a stranger, a strong outsider, as an opponent who comes in the name of his People. This has never happened before. In other words, now he takes a stand against his ego; he desires to use the ego itself and all the qualities within it, wanting to extract everything possible out of it in order to correct, bestow and love. And, naturally, the Pharaoh resists; he absolutely cannot allow that. But, because of the great sufferings sweeping through all the human qualities, this very quality within him -- the Pharaoh -- gradually agree. This way, and this way only, he finds an opportunity to alleviate his suffering.

0:03:31

Senya: Well, we'll get to that; but first, let us see how many doubts this desire -- Moshe -- really has. Let us read along with you. You know, he fled, and now he comes back, and he is back with such an incredible force! Normally, those who flee, they do not return, they run and run!

Rav: Right, it is clear that if you (Moshe) would physically come back, you simply would be killed. What was the worth of life in Egypt, even though you grew up in the palace of the Pharaoh? Order is order – no one would hesitate.

Senya: Now, I want to ask you a question. You may or may not want to answer it. A man can have all sorts of “fuses”, you know, as if, all of a sudden, “He came to me, He appeared, and He said: Go!” What kind of state is that for a person? What does it mean: “I heard a voice”? You know, we heard this quite a few times, from madmen and such.

Rav: Do you want to--

Senya: Provoke you, basically.

Rav: Yes, provoke me into an explanation, I get it. One starts to perceive inside of him such qualities as bestowal, love, and relations that explain our world to him, how it is all interconnected, how an absolute supreme harmony is at work there. Based on this, he feels the only force pervading this world: a good, purposeful, focused , wise power, which is now manifesting itself in him. He is, in particular, a vessel of this force; it flows through him. He is somewhat transparent in relation to this force. And this indeed is a revelation of the Creator on different levels: seeing, hearing, and such...

Senya: feeling, following him..

Rav: Well, mostly, it is seeing and hearing.

00:05:21

Senya: So, a person has such a sensation

Rav: Well, we may have even more clear sensations: when a person is filled with explicit qualities and discovers this model within himself. Just like now, we find a model of a certain state in ourselves and we call this state "our world". It consists of a multitude of all the possible details. This is how the next state arrives.

Senya: In other words, this is a view, through Moshe, on the world.

Rav: Right

Senya: Citation: And the LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings. “So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites.

Rav: Right

Senya: and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. (Exodus 3:7-8, ESV) You will go and seize it, he says, you will be an invader.
Rav: Yes, certainly.

Senya: You will take your people and go conquer other people's lands.
00:06:25
Rav: you will kill, conquer, slaughter, burn until you will have invaded all of this land.

Senya: You have further hardened my question. The question was: You will go and become an invader of foreign lands.
Rav: Yes, indeed so. And you will hence
Senya: take pride in it

Rav: Take pride in it because by this, you implant bestowal and infinite love. This reminds us of the Crusaders.

Senya: Yes, very much so. Because they came to implant by fire and sword.

Senya (Simultaneously): You see, what a fine gradation.
Rav (Simultaneously): Well of course, because if there is no explanation, then this is the way it goes, this is how one needs to establish, to impose one's religion, by conquering.
Senya: By force, by blood.
Rav: By force, by blood, just like that.

Senya: You see, it was probably interpreted this way, that they came and started

Rav: naturally, of course

Senya: and started there, the entire Middle Ages in blood.

Rav: Of course, the Bible is the basis for all the evil in the world, just like for all the good, what matters is how you turn it!

Senya: When is it not for evil?

Rav: When a man reveals everything in himself, then it sounds completely different.

This means that in me, in my selfish desires, there are seven layers: Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet, Netzach, Hod, Yesod, Malkhut, called Jebusites, Amorites and Hivites, and etc.,

Senya: 7 nations

Rav: 7 nations inhabiting the land, which is called the Land of Israel. Meaning that the Land is ratson--Erez Israel. Erez is ratson -- a desire directed to the Creator. But now, my selfish desires are lined up in the direction of the Creator, I have to improve them. Now what is the way of correcting them will be discussed later: this one is to be killed, this one-slaughtered, that one-burned, and this one-conquered, or say, only men here, only women there, and so on and so forth. That is, the right line, the left line, etc. We are given very accurate instructions on how a man can turn these seven qualities of his, which are now egoistic -- into a sound vessel, where he discovers then in this desire, directed to the Creator, his Upper World.

Senya: Well then, perhaps to soften the blow, what does that mean to "kill them"?

00:08:32

Rav: To kill their selfish intentions
Senya: To kill their selfish intentions

Rav: Exactly, burn them or there are four types of
Senya: Executions

Rav: Executions, right: to hang, burn, strangle or slaughter

Senya: by my reckoning, there was something like stoning, too...

Rav: Yes, stoning.

Senya: Does this mean that a man goes through these executions within himself, and turns these egoistic properties, these selfish layers, into altruistic qualities?
Rav: Absolutely.

Senya: Well, now that's clearer, easier to understand...

Rav: Easier? It's actually much harder. A man is unable to perform these actions within himself over all of his egoistic qualities. Meaning, he is given this task and he has to accomplish it, he must do it; and he reveals that he cannot do anything except to appeal to the qualities of the Creator, and with this Light, this Force, they -- these qualities -- will be making changes in him. These changes are called the killings, the slaughter, etc.

Senya: This means that at each stage a man endeavors, tries to do something by himself, and comes to the understanding that cannot do anything.

Rav: That is if he wants to change all of this in himself. A man has to end up wanting it, since this is the equivalent of cutting oneself open. But again, you can only do it while engaging the Upper Light. The Upper Light elevates you above your own selfish desires, and now you look at them from the side, and then you are prepared to "kill" them.

00:10:01

Senya: Citation: "Now, behold, the cry of the sons of Israel has come to Me; furthermore, I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt." (Exodus 3:10 )

Senya: He gives such a task to Moshe, and Moshe, as we see, is not ready for this task.

Senya: Citation: But Moshe said to God, "Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?" (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-11.htm)

Rav: Which is to say, the sons of Israel represent very important altruistic qualities under the reign of their own ego. They can teach you such a painful lesson that you will see that under no circumstances and by no means, could you ever succeed, and that this method is wrong, that the ego can perfectly cope with everything, that this is the only way to exist - backing up all that is said today. If you ask anyone, he will tell you: here are my selfish qualities, and there are my altruistic qualities, see how by reconciling these two you can quite perfectly create a good life. We only have to rationally, correctly, wisely, and in agreement with others, use all of this.

Senya: Excellent.

Rav: Right, and everything will work out very well. Why do you think that the ego has to be completely subdued by the altruistic qualities? Where are you going to take the energy from then? Who would want to do that? This rationale is not realistic. And so on. In other words, Moshe says: “What can I offer to a man, to myself?” I am not able to convince myself that I have to completely suppress myself, rise above myself, and act against everything that appears in me.

Senya: What can I do? Who am I?

Rav: For what? I do not see a goal. If I see the goal, I'll be comparing it with my present state and it will seem to be better for my ego, hence, I will go from a small ego to a large ego! Based on which forces? Where is this motor, a selfless motor, with which I can be moving forward? It doesn’t exist – and from there stem all of my attitudes towards my qualities, namely, my altruistic qualities in custody of my ego, where they are also fulfilled. This means that I have nothing to offer him.

00:12:20

Senya: Citation: " Then Moshe said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shall you say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, has sent me to you.

Rav: To say means to 'reveal', to say means 'to show' to these qualities – both egoistic and altruistic, which are under the shell of the ego -- to show these qualities that there is an Upper Force that controls everything, including that same ego, that same Pharaoh, and themselves. In other words, they are all under the agency of one single program, force, and purpose.

Senya: Which remains eternally, he said. I am everlasting, omnipresent.

Rav: Eternal means that 'it is revealed in all the qualities of a man'. This is called eternal. The conditions of time, space, movement are the states that exist in us.

Senya: Roughly speaking, a mortal feels immortality, right?

Rav: Right, this is a clear sensation, of course.

Senya: This is a feeling of a man, this is a revelation

Rav: When the ego expands in the altruistic directions, then it feels beyond the scopes, free of the boundaries, in the world of infinity, and it perceives it as immortality, as the boundlessness indeed.

Senya: And probably this resides in the subconscious of every person, in the subconscious mind of anyone. This is why probably the mummies were made. To capture this very feeling.

Rav: No. This is a desire for a different life: an eternal one. And here we have another eternity revealed. The eternity of this Force that conducts you. And since you are embraced by it, you perceive this eternity too.

00:14:12

Senya: Citation: " Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, and I promise that I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of”, then he lists to which land, “a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:16-17)

By the way, why is there a constant repetition, “a land flowing with milk and honey?”

Rav: Both the Light of Hasadim and the Light of Hokhma

Senya: And milk is the Light of mercy, right?

Rav: Right

Senya: Because this is the infant food, isn’t it?

Rav: Indeed, it develops this way, the small states are filled with the Light of Hasadim.

Senya: and honey, you were talking about, then, honey?

Rav: Honey or wine, or oil, liquid oil,

Senya: Like olive oil?

Rav: Right; all of these represent the Light of Hokhma, the Light of wisdom.

Senya: the Light of wisdom.

00:15:04

Senya: Further he says: “And they will listen to your voice, and you and the elders of Israel shall go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us; and now, please let us go a three days’ journey into the desert, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.”  (Exodus 3:18)

Rav: He does not lie, it is three days. He wants to distance himself. These three degrees are the required distance for the separation.

Senya: separation from the ego?

Rav: Yes, this means: “Let us rise above you, he says to Pharaoh, and we will retreat only by this distance”

Senya: What is the desert? Why leave to the desert?

Rav: The desert means that no one holds sway over you, when you are absolutely free. When you are in a state where you do not depend on anything, even though you are in such a condition when you have nothing to feed upon.

Senya: No water or food.

Rav: There is nothing - no water or food. This very state of the desert, it helps a man to break away from the fillings, from the questions about the fulfilments. You do not have anything in the desert. And then you can, because you feel so devastated, absolutely not rely of your own efforts. Then you can really stand in need and call for the Higher Forces to help you.

00:16:32

Senya: I wonder whether this was this very manifestation at the beginning of the past century when the Hasidim, penniless, went into the nothing and nowhere for years?

Rav: Much worse, because they left in an unknown direction to wander the roads at their risk, and in great peril -- to experience the exile. This is not an exile. It looks like there are similar moments here and there.

Senya: You say to come to a greater necessity in the Creator

Rav: to come to a great necessity in the Creator

Senya: This now. Is that called the expulsion?

Rav: Because the only thing that can help a man is when he feels to be in absolutely no command of the circumstances, and then he develops this need for something to grab hold of - a selfish desire, and then this leads him to..

Senya: I would like to clarify an important issue, what if a person is deliberately driving himself in such a state?

Rav: Well, they did it intentionally, then too.

Senya: They did; and if someone does it today?

Rav: And what is written about Moshe? It is also all intentional! This is all according to a plan. There is a plan, where at such and such stages you have to take action to pass through.

Senya: But this a bit masochistic in nature. I have to deliberately paddock myself in a certain state to develop a need in the Creator!

Rav: This is your work, the work with the qualities you have. And what is it then and how? It's not like something happens on its own.

Senya: No. It somehow comes to my decision. My decision to force myself.

Rav: Of course, a conscious decision. How else? Otherwise you would be coerced into doing it. It is impossible to coerce in the spiritual. The progress in the work of the Creator is based only on the consciousness, because you have to nurture the human in yourself.

Senya: Right.

Rav: and if you are led up to such a state, would there be anything of yours there? This would make you an angel and not a man; not Adam.

00:18:22
Senya: This does not mean that I intentionally urge myself to suffer? Intentionally!
Rav: Um, no, because your goal is not the sufferings, but a demand to reveal the Creator through them.

Senya: Then the most important thing is to determine the purpose of it all.
Rav: And you need the suffering so that your ego goes quiet and does not interfere.

Senya: These are new steps, incidentally, little by little.
Rav: Well, one has to progress.
Senya: Where is the joy there? Precisely in this goal?
Rav: It is in the ascent!

Senya: Above these sufferings?

Rav: In breaking free from the ego for 3 days, in the ascent above it, and in the revelation of the Creator. And discovering that the desert is a joy. Because in this desert, you find a new source of life. The quality of bestowal from which you suddenly begin to become fulfilled, from the quality of bestowal.

Senya: It means that you practically find a source of water and food in the desert?

Rav: Indeed

Senya: It is just the other way round.
Rav: Oddly enough. This is why our ancestry, all of them lived in the desert.

Senya: There you are. A crucial point.
Senya: Citation: "But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless compelled by a mighty hand. So I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all the wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:19-20)

00:19:57

Senya: There is confusion here. On the one hand, it says ”Go forth," and on the other hand it says, “I will get the Pharaoh going!”

Rav: Basically, "just you wait..."

Senya:  I will get the Pharaoh going so much that he will "give you hell", and you go. And I am coming with you. But then of course he says: so we shall leave, but go ahead and trust him! Generally speaking, you are in such an internal state where on the one hand you go, and on the other hand, you know that it will be dreadful.

Rav: Well, you know with what I would compare it? I used to play sports at one time, though I have not done so in a while. And there was a coach. On the one hand, he creates obstacles for you, but then, he supports you, he tells you how to withstand it, how you can run and jump, etc., and still, he stiffens the conditions all the time, and that is the way he helps you from both sides. That is, in our life there are such ...

Senya: and then you produce a result !

Rav:  and what does the teacher do at school? He places problems before you and helps you to solve them, sets new problems, helps and supports you. And how do we deal with a baby? We put it in front of us and then we move away, and again set him to move away once more, so that he starts walking.

Senya: In principle, it is quite logical.

Rav: And it is particularly evident in sports. Because there is serious pressure coming from the coach, for whom you are like a son. He is investing in you and supporting you. And yet there are circumstances when the coach sets up special challenges designed just for you.

00:21:14

Senya: that is, I put in front of you such an obstacle, but I will be training you, so that you can withstand it.

Rav: yes, indeed, but you may not know about it in advance.
Senya: And after accomplishing it, you will get a medal for it.

Rav: Right.

Senya: It is logical, even though I thought that it was not so logical before.

Rav: Oh no, we always use this method in education. We always stand on two sides.

00:21:49

Senya: And what about this method used at the beginning of last century at schools, in the Yeshivas, when you are beaten by the stick and you have to immediately kiss this stick?

Rav: Now this is awareness; it is when you want from the student a right answer to the blow.
Senya: Also an ascend above this suffering?
Rav: Yes, of course, and the understanding that
Senya: it is for my own good.
Rav: for my benefit, right.

Senya: Citation: "Then Moshe answered, “But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, ‘The LORD did not appear to you.’ ( Exodus 4:1)

Senya: Meaning that Moshe is so stubborn, he keeps on resisting all the time.

Rav: Absolutely.

00:22:28

Senya: Citation: "The LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A staff.” And he said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent, and Moses ran from it. But the LORD said to Moses, “Put out your hand and catch it by the tail”—so he put out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand— “that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” ( Exodus 4:2-5)

Senya: Now I read what I just read, but I keep an eye on the clock and the time we have, and unfortunately our time is running out for the show. I think that we should...

Rav: leave it at that.

Senya: Let us leave it.

Rav: It is just interesting to know that we have to grab the snake by the tail and not by the head. People usually grab his head and the throat.

Senya: It makes you wonder. One has to grasp it the way that it does not turn its head and snap you.

Rav: Right, but if you grab it by the tail it may as well..

Senya: Let us think about it!!

Rav: That is unnatural

Senya: It is unnatural. All it has to do is turn around and bite.

Thank you ever so much, Dr. Laitman, thank you my dear friends. I apologize that we we are forced to stop mid-sentence.

Rav: What is there in our ego that we have to catch by the tail?

Senya: What is there in this ego of ours that we have to grab this way by the tail?

We shall speak of this soon in our next broadcast.

Stay tuned and see you soon!