Part 2:

Baal HaSulam. The Freedom. (Taking after the Collective)

Reading Article. (00:20) “Our scriptures say: “Take after the Collective…”

1.S. (04:28) If it's the law of nature and it's like two drops of water then what we see is the law of nature was broken because right now those who lead the way for all of humanity is a small number who decide for everyone what to see, what to eat, what to drink?

R. It could be that you are wrong. Where do you think that, because that's what you see through the newspapers, TV, through what's convenient for you, habits, I don't know. I heard what he said, okay but to say that that's the way it is or not?

S. For example we know that in Israel there are ten families that control everything, that dictate everything, that's reality, you can say this or that but that's reality?

R. We are not going to get into scrutinies. Of course, according to the way you see things you are right. I am not even getting into this; I heard what the reader read, what Baal HaSulam wrote and we will see, we will keep going. Could be that what we see in the corrupted way is for our good, that we should check it and reach some kind of decision. What, I don’t see what you see? Of course I do.

Continuing to read (06:18) “Yet, our question about the regression..”

2. R. (07:16) That's even stronger, keep going.

Continuing Reading. “We must ask further: Things are justified..”

3. S. (11:15) When we read this article usually a thought about the whole world comes up. Can we also say that this happens inside the ten and what he writes here is also within the ten following after the collective?

R. No, no, read what he wrote and just accept it that way.

4. S. (11:42) So does that mean that the wise annuls before the collective?

R. Yes.

S. Because it's the vessel?

R. But it's under the condition that it regards the commandments that belong to the collective.

S. The truth of the righteous is still the truth? For example Rav and the group, let's say he tells the group something and the group is the majority so the teacher annuls before the group but the truth of the teacher is still the truth, so what does the teacher, the Rav annul in this case in this example?

R. We will still need to scrutinize it, we will scrutinize it.

5. S. (12:58) It's clear that when a person looks at reality his view is the view of the individual and when he annuls himself and wants to go toward love of others as he writes then there is already a different relation here. It's unclear how it becomes the view of many. How each one doesn't want to think of his own view and it becomes something common to everyone?

R. So what?

S. So what does it mean to take after the collective? How do I know that I'm joining something that is the view of the collective? How can I measure it?

R. The view of the collective is that you annul yourself in order to hear the Creator.

S. Is it a clear discernment?

R. You have to reach it but it has to be clear.

S. When each one has this inclination then you can call it the view of the collective or is it now the view of the individual because the Creator is…?

R. It's a question, what we are discussing here.

S. I am trying to understand how a person can be certain that he's following the collective?

R. So you need to ask the collective and take their view.

S. Who are the collective?

R. All of Adam and eve.

S. Meaning to annul before every person in reality?

R. Not every person I said toward everybody.

S. How do I ask everybody, it's not clear?

R. Practically I do not know; also he doesn't answer that for now.

6. S. (15:03) So there's the rule of taking after the collective which is a natural law that obligates all of reality.

R. Yes.

S. Opposite that he explains that there is a mix up here because the sages, the wise, are the ones who know how to lead correctly but they follow the collective which are necessarily less developed and will lead incorrectly.

R. Right.

S. So it turns out that it is necessary that in order to go toward a good process where the collective are ripened and changed?

R. I don't know, you are giving solutions. 

S. I’m asking.

R. I don't know. I don't know. For now he just gave a piece of advice to follow the collective.

S. In the meantime we should remain with the question?

R. Yes, you don't have a solution so just remain with that but it has to be clear that you are still in the problem.

Continuing Reading (16:25) “Now we have come to a clear understanding..”

7. S. (18:42) Can you explain what he means by when it is permitted for the collective to expropriate the feeling of the individual and when it is forbidden to do so?

R. When it belongs to the laws of society they can really force the individual.

S. What are the laws of the collective of the society?

R. If it belongs to the life of society.

S. What doesn’t belong to the life of society?

R. Anything that doesn't belong to the life of society entirely the whole collective.

S. Can you give examples because these general definitions are kind of hard to understand?

R. That's the way he writes.

S. It's up to a person's interpretation?

R. I don't know it could be. It could be that you could sit and discuss and speak about it and interpret it and maybe you will understand more from it.

S. Let's say with Rabash, are there examples that you can learn from them about how he kept the life of society, how he was meticulous with them and wouldn’t move from them?

R. I didn't pay attention.

S. For example, you tell us just as an example, maybe I’m off here, he tells us that he was very meticulous with paying taxes and all kinds of examples that to keep but for the society of how do you want to take away from it, how would even think about it?

R. I don't understand.

S. Maybe it's not connected, I don’t want to confuse. I’m asking, what are the laws of society that you have to keep? A person wants to advance towards the goal, just any person,a person, he says and all the laws are commandments.

R. Right.

S. He wants to advance and he reads in Baal HaSulam’s words that you have to keep the life of society. What should he do with this advice?

R. That everything that is for the benefit of the society he has to do.

S. The general society, humanity, the society where he lives?

R. The society which he lives in.

S. The society where he lives is not the spiritual society but the general society where he lives?

R. Stop philosophizing, it doesn't matter. Both all in all we have to keep the laws of society, follow the collective.

S. Where is it forbidden for him to bow under the laws of society?

R. What belongs to spirituality.

S. Meaning?

R. What it is about individual, personal development. Their society cannot take control over the individual.

S. He writes in the part where it does not have direct relation or results for the physical well-being of society. Is this spirituality? It doesn't have a direct relation or a result for the physical well-being of society?

R. It could be I don't know. They didn't think about all of these cases.

8. S. (22:15) I want to ask about the principle that you always give the example of Rabash you mentioned him and it was important for him to be, to appear simple. Kabbalists never appeared special. You said that people would meet in some place and he would tell a joke and they saw him as a…

R. As a friend.

S. A regular person but inside he was this spiritual entity. So the gap, why is it so important because what is simple? Logic says if a person is in spiritual attainment, he sees the whole system, all of nature's laws from one end to the other, how can it be that he doesn't have any input with respect even to the daily conduct. Doesn't he criticize the laws of the state? Maybe we should do this maybe we should do something else?

R. I cannot tell you but only from what I understand that he understood that it’s laws of nature of society and that he cannot go against it because it's a society it's the many, it's the majority, and all in all society is under the control of the Creator and that's why even a Kabbalist, the greater he is even like Moses, he can't go and change the laws of society. He can't take them and lead them whichever way he thinks unless he gets a command from The Creator, as we see in the Torah that is written, so that he does.

S. These orders, commands, are usually about spiritual advancement. He does not give them advice about how to advance in the economy.

R. There's no difference. It is all spiritual, it's all spiritual. Give me an example of something corporeal?

S. For example let's say that there's an economic plan that they decided and the Kabbalist sees it as it's going to lead the people into a crisis and people will suffer, they will go hungry. Can't you say guys I know the laws of nature you are making a mistake here, I do not want to follow this?

R. Who’s going to listen to him?

S. Is it because people won't listen to him?

R. Yes, it's also, it's another law but it's a rule that it's worth, is it worth saying if nobody listens to what he's going to say?

S. When Rabash or any Kabbalist sees the conduct of the general society, the mass, the masses, if you see in an egoistic reason, common sense, that humanity has done so much harm and put itself in the problems, how can they see this as the laws of the Creator?

R. The fact that they are going to advance according to the laws of the Creator that's for sure but just not in a good way but obviously after they have received, took a few rules upon themselves, so they are under those rules but without a blessing, let's say.

S. The Kabbalist agrees to even participate in this mistake because he says this is what the collective decided?

R. He must walk before all of them, look at history. Where does he write that it's the blows come even to the ……one's? What can you do? That's how it is.

9. S. (27:06) So when does it become inverted and the group of people where humanity begins to follow will be Kabbilist, a group of Kabbalists? 

R. After we will be able to explain it to them.

S. Is it real or should it be hidden and they should search for it.

R. No, no, they won't be able to find it on their own.

S. Should it be something revealed or will it work on them in a concealed way?

R. We need to explain it to them until it becomes clear.

10. S. (27:47) These laws seem to become clear but we look at the works of Kabbalists like Baal HaSulam for example, he did try to explain that he came to the land of Israel even though others stayed behind and there are other stories that there were other Rabbis who stayed with the people although they knew what was going to happen so there are different approaches to what a Kabbalist, how he operates within this system of laws.

R. I can't tell you because just like you are saying there's a lot of different types of things.

11. S. (28:40) We had a good example in the lesson. We had a vote to which part of the lesson we should go and the majority chose something and you said I didn't succeed so the question is is the rule that the majority decides always correct?

R. If it belongs to the majority so it is correct, it is correct.

12. S. (29:17) How to distinguish between the laws and legends because only in the laws we should follow the collective but not in legends because legends are above anything that has to do with the existence of social life so they are asking what is the distinction between laws and legends and what is legends anyway?

R. Legends are not for… It's above nature.

13. S. (30:04) Are the laws and conducts of all the nations of the world rooted in the upper world or only the ones that Kabbalists talk about?

R. Everything, everything is rooted it depends on what degree but it is all rooted in the spiritual world.

14. S. (30:27) Should we in the ten check to what extent our friends are listening? How do we check this principle in our tens? Is it better not to speak if you will not be listened to?

R. Yes, if they won't listen to you it is better not to speak.

15. S. (30:55) You basically opened a huge treasure of Rabash and now we are learning together a whole world, Rabashe’s articles which there's nothing like them and the whole world is listening and working with it all the time, all the tens are working with it and a Congress awaits us and we have to prepare for it properly. The question is how do we come to one demand to the Creator from all the friends so this demand will be heard so the prayer we need to raise to the Creator will be heard and what should we do, what is missing?

R. I can't say what exactly is lacking. You have to think, you have another week to really get into this deeply and be in contact with all parts of the world, especially Asia which is the center of the Congress. That's it. I don't know I will be happy to participate and I will but still I am under the managers of the Congress that's it. So usually don't turn to me. That's it.

16. S. (32:55) Taking after the collective but there is no collective right now even in the people of Israel there is half and half in the world we see that the views are divided in half in this polarity the world is divided into two different opinions so who are these collective?

R. I don't know, we are really living at a time where we can't decide where we need to turn to. Really that's the way it is, you see the results in the world and I think it is for the best.

17. S. (33:46) Baal HaSulam says a person can choose to which society he wants to relate himself he wants to belong. So if Baal HaSulam has a society like our sages, the greatest of Israel and the whole nation so from his perspective that society is more powerful and that is the society he grew up in so maybe he's not breaking any law but being incorporated in a different society and bringing himself to belong to it and then he feels that that society tells him to move to Israel then he is part of the collective because that is the collective to which he related himself.

R. You can speak about anything in that way.

S. True. It depends on the person which is the collective he belongs to I tell myself I belong to these people if I had the nature of different people I would follow that nature and Baal HaSulam as a second nature that he follows with the people who are there as well, so it simply depends on the society to which you belong to naturally.

R. Yes.

S. So basically without breaking the laws you can simply relate yourself to a better society and then everything falls into place nevertheless, you simply have to put yourself in the right place?

R. I don't understand your question.

S. I am saying a person's choice here is to follow the collective but it refers to the collective that he decides he belongs to. If he feels that he has another collective that he should belong to can he make that transition over to that collective?

R. For me the majority are those who have the emotional and intellectual and spiritual force and not in quantity there is hero in quantity and hero in quality and that's why I am not running to the Chinese or India where there are billions. I am choosing a society that belongs to the center of reality even though it is small.

S. In terms of numbers but as we said it’s got sufficient force?

R. Yes. So before us we have a week to prepare ourselves for the Congress and implement these laws that we are learning about in our Society.