The transcript has been transcribed and edited from English simultaneous interpretation, thus there may be potential semantic inaccuracies within it

Part 2: On the Verge of Lishma - Selected Excerpts from the Sources. #9.

Reader: We are going to read selective excerpts from the sources, ”On the Verge of Lishma”. Continuing on number nine from Baal HaSulam, Shamati. You can ask questions on the website and find the study material there also.

Reader: Item 9, Baal HaSulam, Shamati.

Reading: (00:28) 9. Article No. 22, "Torah Lishma"

Torah is called Lishma [for Her sake] primarily when one learns in order to know with utter certainty, within reason, without any doubts of the clarity of the truth, that there is a judge and there is judgment. There is a judgment means that one sees reality as it appears to our eyes. This means that when we work in faith and bestowal, we see that we are growing and climbing daily, since we always see a change for the better.

And it is likewise to the contrary: When we work in a form of reception and knowledge, we see that we are declining every day down to the ultimate lowliness in reality.

When examining these two states, we see that there is judgment and there is a judge, since while we do not follow the laws of the Torah of truth, we are punished instantly. In that state, we see that there is just judgment. In other words, we see that this is precisely the best way, which is fit and can achieve the truth.

This is considered that the judgment is just, that only in this manner can we come to the ultimate goal: to understand within reason, with complete and absolute understanding of which there is no higher, that only by way of faith and bestowal can we achieve the purpose.

Thus, if one studies for this purpose, to understand that there is judgment and there is a judge, this is called Torah Lishma. 

M. Laitman: Yes.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (03:00) It sounds like it's according to reward and punishment and not Lishma.

M. Laitman: I don't know. 

Student: He says that if you don't follow the rules of the Torah, you get punished on the spot. 

M. Laitman: Yes. 

Student: When you do work in faith and bestowal, you see that we ascend every day and we see things happening for the best. So it's reward and punishment. According to what I see, I know how to work.

M. Laitman: I agree that it's similar to reward and punishment, but he is talking about two perceptions.

Student: What element here actually speaks of Lishma?

M. Laitman: All of his intentions. All his intentions, that he wants to reveal that there is a judge and there is judgment.

Student: So, Lishma, along with there's judgment and a judge, so it's not in the intention to bestow. He reveals it in his will to receive. That's at least what he explains. The way a person works, he can say that there's judgment or a judge and according to that he can advance.

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: Isn't that reward and punishment? There's like a feedback. According to the way a person works, he can decide how to advance onward?

M. Laitman: Yes. No.

Student: Why no?

M. Laitman: Because the way he's writing, this is the best way to advance and reach the truth. That the judgment is a just judgment.

Student: In every state we have more part in concealment, part in Revelation, part Lishma, part Lo Lishma. It's like a percentage from the whole state. So what's the work in Lishma if any state has this whole spectrum of different types of revelation and concealment? You really have forms of revelation and concealment in every state you turn. So what does it mean to work Lishma? What in every state will be right to advance towards Lishma?

M. Laitman: So like, he tells you, Torah is called Lishma primarily when one learns in order to know with utter certainty, within reason, without any doubts of the clarity of the truth that there is a judge and there is judgment.

Student: What does that mean? How do you reach that? 

M. Laitman: That you want to reveal the Creator, that's the source of each and every state that comes to you.

Student: Let's say in the current state, in order to bring some part that's in concealment, I need to correct it, or do I need to draw it from the part that is in Lishma into the concealment? 

M. Laitman: That I don't know. That you need to check. 

Student: How can I, in part of a concealment discover that there's a judgment and a judge? What do I need to do there? 

M. Laitman: Search. Whether there is or isn't.

Student: The search changes the revelation. The search brings for revelation.

M. Laitman: The search that you're studying in order to learn in absolute certainty, within reason, truly, without any doubts of clarity of the truth, that there is a judge and there is judgment.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (07:48) So he writes that the main Torah Lishma, is studying clearly, within reason, that there's a judge and a judgment. So in such a state of Lishma, there's no faith above reason?

M. Laitman: He receives all that is revealed to him as the revelation of the Torah. Torah Lishma.

Student: What's a place for faith in Lishma? In engaging in Torah Lishma? Because everything's revealed. There's a judge, there's a judgment, everything's in front of you. 

M. Laitman: If it's that way, then that's it. 

Student: He has nothing to do. So there's no faith.

M. Laitman: He has nothing to add. The fact that he reveals the Creator now as the source of his state, that's his faith. That's what he reveals. That's what he discovers.

Student: He discovers clearly, within reason. 

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: So he's not going above reason until Lishma is in reason.

M. Laitman: Yes, because it's been revealed. 

Student: What's a place for faith then?

M. Laitman:  His faith does not appear here. Because he receives in a clear manner, in his vessels that there is a judgment and there is a judge.

Student: And then the faith above reason was cancelled, and he went to revelation within reason. 

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: Meaning there's no more faith in Lishma. So what's the right judgment?

M. Laitman: That it's all with justice, according to the qualities of a person.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (10:06) Judgment and judge is reception and bestowal? 

M. Laitman: No.

Student: So what is it?

M. Laitman: Judgment is the state he's in, and Judge is the force that operates upon him. 

Student: And that he needs to fill in a reason, like the created being and the Creator.

M. Laitman: Yes.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (10:44) I didn't quite understand the answer you gave to the friend. The answer to the friend wasn't so clear because he says that you see reality like it seems before our eyes, meaning when we work in faith and bestowal, we rise from day to day. Because every time we see a change for the good. We have this matter called the will to receive, every person knows it. Upon that matter there are all kinds of actions, and nobody understands why and how things are happening to him. Then he starts studying, he searches for the rules that are happening, the laws in it. Then we learn that if we do certain actions in a certain way with friends and so on, our state gets better. We discover something that wasn't there before, and if we go to a different place, so our state becomes bad again.

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: What does it mean that now we don't need faith anymore? There's an even bigger challenge for faith.

M. Laitman: Faith and knowledge are in two extremes, two sides. So if a person has knowledge, he has no room for faith. 

Student: So, it's not an opportunity to search for more faith?

M. Laitman: How, if you don't have a deficiency for it? 

Student: To ask? Because otherwise it's a fault, isn't it? If a person takes faith as knowledge, so he has no place to work? 

M. Laitman: Yes. I understand you. But nevertheless, then what do we need to yearn for? For faith or for knowledge? 

Student: It's a question. I don't have an answer.

M. Laitman: Okay. 

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (13:05) I understand that he answered at the end. This is called... Only this way you can reach the purpose, to understand that there is judgment and reason, and there's nothing above it that only in faith and bestowal can we achieve the purpose. Yes. It's also an answer, and it's also a question, because he says that he has to understand in reason and complete an absolute understanding that only faith and bestowal. So is it in reason or faith and bestowal? 

M. Laitman: Faith and bestowal, do they replace reason? 

Student: What is judgment? If you can explain that state, that a person understands within reason, in complete faith, that only in faith and bestowal can one achieve the purpose.

M. Laitman: Yes, because in faith and bestowal, he attains the truth of the way the Creator relates to him. 

Student: And he needs to attain it within reason, that only this way you achieve the purpose? 

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: So what does it mean to attain that in reason, but only with faith? 

M. Laitman: That he can't do this above reason.

Student: What can he do above reason? 

M. Laitman: To attain the Creator, but rather only within reason.

Student: He says he needs to understand within reason that only in faith and bestowal you can reach the purpose.

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: So what is the state that he has to understand in reason that only in faith he attains the Creator.?

M. Laitman: Seemingly one disputes the other. I understand, but that's how it is.

Student: So?

M. Laitman: It's a matter of feeling.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (16:00) Is it right to say that faith is a light and knowledge is a vessel and we need them both together? 

M. Laitman: Yes. Yes. We learned that too.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (16:29) It's written, know the Lord your God and work for Him. That's what we have to reach?

M. Laitman: A little clearer.

Student: It's written, know the Lord your God and work for Him. 

M. Laitman: Yes. That's what we have to reach. And that comes later.  

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (17:11) Baal HaSulam advises us to work according to the laws of the Torah of truth. 

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: What does that mean in our state? What does that mean?

M. Laitman: According to the wisdom of Kabbalah? The wisdom of Kabbalah is called the Torah of truth. 

Student: But the wisdom of Kabbalah, we start learning it only when we reach revelation of the face. And now?

M. Laitman: And now, learn in practice what to do in order to achieve that, to constantly think about connection. 

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (18:16) The topic is On the Verge of Lishma, it's a preparation for our convention, that we want to develop more of a sensitivity to that degree to enter it. And yesterday and today, during the lesson, you said we're lacking desire. 

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: What to do?

M. Laitman: I don't know. I don't know how to disclose additional desire for bestowal, connection, adhesion, love, connection between you. You need to talk about this more, and to influence with your words, or even without the words, so that each and every one will have at least an inclination towards this.

Student: What desire are we lacking?

M. Laitman: The desire to bestow. 

Student: And if we're lacking such a desire, so how can we awaken it? As a vessel, as a world group? 

M. Laitman: With prayer.

Student: When we, when we have to talk between us, like you say, even without words, so what to awaken? 

M. Laitman: Yes, there's a desire to bestow, which is the Creator, 100% desire to bestow. And we need to also receive the desire to bestow from Him in order to resemble Him, come closer to Him, to embrace, to enter into Him. That's our work.

Student: For lacking such a desire, how do we, from the 100% desire to bestow to the Creator get a bit more desire to bestow?

M. Laitman: For it to clothe on us.

Student: But we don't have a desire for it, you're saying. 

M. Laitman: But from not having a desire, you can come to a state where you do have a desire. 

Student: So that action exactly, from the no desire to the desire, what has to happen?

M. Laitman: Equivalence of form.

Student: What's on us, to bring ourselves to such a desire to bestow?

M. Laitman: That we will be able to love one another, to connect with one another, to bestow to each and every one as much as possible. And then in such a way, we will get the Creator to relate to us in the same way as well. 

Student: So the relation between us, or the game, or at least the attempts to love each other, that will awaken the love from Him. That's how we awaken a desire between us, towards the upper one?

M. Laitman: Yes. 

Student: Now when there's no desire and you say prayer, meaning you have no desire, you have to pray. So what is the prayer that comes before the prayer? 

M. Laitman: That we simply want to care for one another. To care for one another. And then each and every one can help his friend in how to be caring for everyone. That's it.

Student: When we talk together, sometimes I feel inspired. The heart gets filled. To some extent, it cancels the prayer?

M. Laitman: Yes.

Student: How to awaken prayer?

M. Laitman: By coming closer and strengthening one another. 

Student: How can each one help his friend be in concern towards everyone?

M. Laitman: By their example.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (23:21) Well, the same question. How do we give each other the enthusiasm, the yearning? And it doesn't have to be in words, because some people talk more. That's something external. How do you make it like a good disease? That we're all contagious in our deficiency, in our longing? 

M. Laitman: We need to hold ourselves. One to the other and the other to the one. And to the extent in which each feels dependent on everyone. And then it's only in that that we feel, we can see that we're all dependent on the upper force. That actually what we want is only in Him. Only in Him. And then we turn to Him and cry out. That don't forget us. Give us this force.

Student: It seems that from above we're one unit and He lets each one ignite the other. So you can't complain to Him. He awakens us. How can we do our part and really recognize where the fire is and adhere to it, and not let it turn out?

M. Laitman: It's something you have to search for. Search for opportunities to come closer to one another. Because we learned the whole wisdom already.  

Student: What else are we missing?

M. Laitman: Search. I don't think it's something that you can express in words. Because the words, we've used them all already. 

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (26:23) There's the matter of the order of the prayer, where we start with praise and gratitude, and then the request, and we finish with praise and gratitude. Should we keep that? Is that important? Let's say, or is there no need? Well, it's a little bit different topic. When I pray, it usually starts without taste. The Creator gives me a thought that now you have an opportunity to pray for the friends. The goal is to reach a certain feeling of disclosure of love towards a friend. Meaning, until then, I haven't filled this prayer. Okay, and then just not stop with this prayer and continue? 

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (27:21) Rav, there's the judge and the judgment. How do you go to court?

M. Laitman: How do you go to court?

Student: How to work in the courthouse. Sometimes it feels like my prayer is battling in the courthouse, in the judgment. But I want to work in the courthouse. How? How to serve, how to work in the courthouse? How to serve the judge? 

M. Laitman: What does he want?

Student: If I understand correctly, he's asking how not to be the prosecutor but how to be in the just judgment, to serve that.

M. Laitman: I don't know. We need to scrutinize. That is something I don't know.

Student: If I understood correctly, he's asking how to serve the Creator, the judge. How to serve him. 

M. Laitman: That's a question.

Student: When I receive judgment, with the correct attitude, it's like a punishment. That's why my direction is corrected. But even before the judgment, I want to serve the Creator so it will protect me in the right direction. 

M. Laitman: You're right. Try.

Student: Try. Try what? What action can I come closer to the work of the judge? To serve the judge. If I receive the judgment, how to serve his judgment without all the nonsense that I want something different, but only for me to want to be in his desire?

M. Laitman: Yes. Ask, What you feel, that's already the Creator receiving it.

Question (Petah Tikva Center): (30:35) We talk about that we need to take care of the friends. And you just said, we cannot talk about it more. We learned all the wisdom already. And we know Or Hochma needs to be clothed in Or Rachamim. How can we attract more Or Rachamim?

M. Laitman: It all depends only to the extent that we want to help each other. Then the light of Hochma can clothe in that tendency of Hassidim between us.